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If and when new GS comes out, the base engine will be 4cyl turbo and the 3.5 V6 tt will be very rare if its even offered. It would not surprise me if they bring back the 3.5 NA v6.
Also this new TT V6's power figures are overstated as typical with Lexus based on instrumented tests of new LS.
Secondly - why does it tilt you so much that Jeremy Clarkson called the E60 ugly? People didn't get tilted when you called Lexus GS ugly.
I won't bother addressing the lengthy and repetitious post because it's basically rehashing an opinion. But to be accurate, you brought up Clarkson, not me. If he says something is ugly then it must be so, right?
And I dare you to find any of my posts calling the GS "ugly". Don't put words in my mouth to suit your argument.
If he says something is ugly then it must be so, right?
That's why I like Alex Dyke's reviews so much. He's not an entertainer like Clarkson. Alex simply describes a vehicle, in great detail, pretty much the way it is, and compares it to others in the class, instead of interjecting a bunch of subjective terms like "ugly", "beautiful", "breathtaking", "eyesore", etc....... I sometimes insert my own subjective terms in a review, but try to keep it to a minimum.
Just kill the thing. Makes no sense to have 2 similar size cars in the same lineup. A TNGA ES will be better than the GS in every way, plus if they add AWD, its 100% game over.
A TNGA ES will be better than the GS in every way, plus if they add AWD, its 100% game over.
Can you elaborate on this? I assumed the RWD architecture of the GS would provide better weight balance and the longer dash to axle ratio of RWD? Does TNGA somehow address this?
Yes, brand is most probably the number 1 factor as to why the 3 Series outsells the IS.
However, there are some other major factors at play too.
Another major factor is styling.
To say that styling has minimal impact on sales is contrary to JD Power research, and many other studies. http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...hicle-purchase http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...tain-cars.html http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/buy...icle-1.2552707
The IS is very controversially sportily styled compared to the C Class and 3 Series which sold 77k+ & 59k+ respectively last year in the USA to the IS's paltry 26k+ units.
Beyond saying that styling plays a major factor in purchase decision, I don't like to comment too much on styling, because it is too subjective with no proof, and no evidence backed up by research/polling.
There are other factors too like interior space.
The IS is smaller than both C Class and 3 Series.
Another factor that is generally NOT widely surveyed/researched is ethnicity.
In the US, about 50+% of the population is of European ethnicity, and Lexus is the second biggest luxury marque in the USA behind Mercedes-Benz.
However, in other parts of the world like Australia and New Zealand, Lexus is only the fourth biggest luxury marque - well behind BMW and Audi - and there is speculation that Australia & New Zealand have much higher percentage of European ethnicity than the USA [approaching 90%] - hence the rather poor sales of Lexus in those parts of the world.
I don't think the Lexus IS was styling is bad at all. The Lexus design of the grille and L lights design are well-approved by the auto-world. A lot of people love the Lexus UX design. I'll agree. Styling will come across people's heads when purchasing a car. I just believe, based on experience, people will look pass design for brand. Its just a lot of times we have to realize the brand (regardless if luxury or not) can carry the car as a whole. IE: While Toyota cars itself aren't know for luxuries, their brand of Camry and RAV4 is strong, insanely strong. Its known to be a cheap, family-based, fuel efficient, and reliable. You can literally put a piece of dog crap on the car and people will buy it by the boatloads.
Your last paragraph, I agree with you 100%. I agree with it so much I wanna add upon it. Ethnicity is definitely a factor. Chances are, there are Americans that refuse to buy Japanese cars because of Pearl Harbor. Chances are, Americans of European descent will most likely purchase European vehicles. Same goes for Americans of Asian descent - they'll most likely purchase Japanese vehicles. This is reflection of the population too. While America is majority of people with European descent - it can affect sales volumes of a specific brand IE: BMW/Mercedes Benz.
I want to add the area of which people live play a big deciding factor of what they drive as well. Majority of Americans live in big cities. Many city dwellers, especially LA city dwellers, are more likely to purchase BMW/Mercedes Benz because of the Hollywood culture - which is looking rich. An extra addition to this (also another reason why brand is insanely important) is calledproduct placement. In marketing, that is the placement of a brand within a TV Show, movie or song. If you noticed, rappers mostly talk about exotic car brands, Mercedes Benz and BMW. If rappers and singers talk about how they get into their Benz, the average consumer will be conditioned to think - "If a rapper has a Benz or BMW, then it must be a good brand."
Originally Posted by peteharvey
Only when we learn more about platforms do we realize that the current Lexus N Platform used in the current 4GS is indeed outdated.
Full alumiium platforms as used in Acura NSX, Audi A8 & Tesla Model S costs too much to manufacture, hence presently, only "part" aluminium platforms are used with neatly 50% aluminium content.
VW/Audi/Porsche actually started the modular "architecture" platforms eg MQB transverse & MLB longitudinal back in 2012.
The 2015-22 Audi A4 is claimed to be 260 lbs lighter than its predecessors!!!
Mercedes started their modular architecture platforms called their MRA platform in the 2013-20 S Class, short for Modular Rear Architecture.
The new MFAModular Front Architecture is used in the CLA etc.
The MRA platform was then used in the 2014-21 C Class.
Then this platform was used in the 2016-23 E Class. The MRA modular platform in the E Class has high aluminium content that reduces weight by around 220 lbs! Lower weight not only improves performance, but it also improves economy, braking, agility, and terminal grip on the skid pan.
All car manufacturers cheat off each other.
They copy each other in styling, and in engineering.
Thus, BMW is not to be outdone, BMW has the UKL Untere Klasse [lower class], and OKL Ober Klasse [luxury class] modular platforms.
The 2015-22 7 Series was the first to use the new modular BMW platform with high aluminium content, and much lower weight.
The 2017-22 5 Series was next to use the OKL platform.
The forthcoming 2019-26 3 Series will be next in line for the new high aluminium content OKL platform.
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I don't think using the New N Platform to compare to the TNGA is a right way of concluding if something is "outdated" or "better". Just because something is "newer" doesn't mean the older product is "outdated". However - I do acknowledge that we are in a tech era now and anything not "new" is considered "outdated". That's why the phone industry is have a field day laughing all the way to the bank by preying on people's insecurities. Consumers today feel like they have to have latest tech or else they'll feel like its "outdated". That's why there so many people buying new iPhone or Androids every year.
While Lexus is slower to adopt the TNGA platform from Toyota, Toyota introduced the TNGA platform around the same time the Germans had.
Originally Posted by RNM GS3
If and when new GS comes out, the base engine will be 4cyl turbo and the 3.5 V6 tt will be very rare if its even offered. It would not surprise me if they bring back the 3.5 NA v6.
Also this new TT V6's power figures are overstated as typical with Lexus based on instrumented tests of new LS.
I agree with this 100%. As much as I would love the Lexus GS to have a detuned TTV6 from the LS, chances are they'll bring back the 2GR-FKS NA V6 engine. My belief is that because the 2GR-FKS engine is still new so they'll have no point to trash it just yet. Same thing for the 4 Turbo. It'll likely remain the same. This is because Lexus is a conservative company and its still a business at the end of the day. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept the Lexus GS on the New N platform for one more generation either.
Originally Posted by MattyG
I won't bother addressing the lengthy and repetitious post because it's basically rehashing an opinion. But to be accurate, you brought up Clarkson, not me. If he says something is ugly then it must be so, right?
And I dare you to find any of my posts calling the GS "ugly". Don't put words in my mouth to suit your argument.
Rehashing an opinion? Yes. Its my opinion the Lexus GS sales volume are low because of brand, price and value. Its my opinion based on my experience as a person that works in business and marketing. Just like its how your opinion to say its styling that tanked the Lexus GS sales. However - when I stated the New N platform isn't an aging platform - that's not an opinion. 6 years old is hardly an "aging" platform. That's your opinion and I respect that.
Okay? I brought up Clarkson? What does that have to do with anything? I brought it up as a way of saying everyone has different opinions. But for some reason that tilted you. And you still sound tilted. Where did I say if he says something is ugly then it must be so? You are the one putting words into my mouth. Ironic.
No. You didn't call the Lexus GS ugly. You implied the Lexus GS is ugly when you claimed: "The GS, as I have stated is perfectly good car flawed by its styling and its aging platform and lack of drive train choices." Flawed by its styling is basically a PC way of saying its ugly, is it not?
If you are not going to have a decent debate about sales volume regarding the Lexus GS without getting micro-aggressive, then there is honestly no one point in continuing to even talk to you. We will agree to disagree. /end
Originally Posted by situman
Just kill the thing. Makes no sense to have 2 similar size cars in the same lineup. A TNGA ES will be better than the GS in every way, plus if they add AWD, its 100% game over.
Chances are the Lexus GS will not get axed since the Toyota Crown is going to be released. I think the TNGA GA-K will be a better Lexus ES than before but I don't think it'll be better than the Lexus GS even if the Lexus GS still rides on the New N Platform. A platform and AWD alone will not make the ES better than the GS as a car. It will definitely pull more sales but it doesn't mean it'll be a better car overall. The Lexus ES sales numbers doesn't mean its a better car than the Lexus GS. It just means it was marketed better and placed in a better position to sell more. I also want to note - Toyota/Lexus isn't exactly known for great AWD systems. Their current AWD system is no Quattro or SH-AWD. The Lexus ES AWD system will have to be insanely good in order for people to even want to buy the option. I also want to note: Lexus better price the new Lexus ES perfectly too - they should try to keep it under 40K start. At the end of the day, no one wants to buy an expensive Camry in a suit.
Only when we learn more about platforms do we realize that the current Lexus N Platform used in the current 4GS is indeed outdated.
Full alumiium platforms as used in Acura NSX, Audi A8 & Tesla Model S costs too much to manufacture, hence presently, only "part" aluminium platforms are used with neatly 50% aluminium content.
VW/Audi/Porsche actually started the modular "architecture" platforms eg MQB transverse & MLB longitudinal back in 2012.
The 2015-22 Audi A4 is claimed to be 260 lbs lighter than its predecessors!!!
Mercedes started their modular architecture platforms called their MRA platform in the 2013-20 S Class, short for Modular Rear Architecture.
The new MFAModular Front Architecture is used in the CLA etc.
The MRA platform was then used in the 2014-21 C Class.
Then this platform was used in the 2016-23 E Class. The MRA modular platform in the E Class has high aluminium content that reduces weight by around 220 lbs! Lower weight not only improves performance, but it also improves economy, braking, agility, and terminal grip on the skid pan.
All car manufacturers cheat off each other.
They copy each other in styling, and in engineering.
Thus, BMW is not to be outdone, BMW has the UKL Untere Klasse [lower class], and OKL Ober Klasse [luxury class] modular platforms.
The 2015-22 7 Series was the first to use the new modular BMW platform with high aluminium content, and much lower weight.
The 2017-22 5 Series was next to use the OKL platform.
The forthcoming 2019-26 3 Series will be next in line for the new high aluminium content OKL platform.
Lately, Lexus has been a bit late to the party.
Late to the party with small capacity turbos.
Late to the party with large capacity Lion battery plug-in hybrids - just ask LexusJillCT!
And of course late to the party with high aluminium content low weight modular architecture chassis.
Though TMC should be on time with electrification, and you never know, TMC may actually pioneer graphene battery technology!
Not to worry, the TNGA GA-L platform debut in the LC & 5LS with high aluminium content in the bonnet, doors, trunk lid, roof, even using cast aluminium strut mounts, and the LC using part carbon fiber doors.
You all know about the TNGA GA-K platform used in the Camry etc.
A brand new modular TNGA GA-L platform is coming into the Toyota Crown next year, and hopefully a 5GS too.
Hopefully, the next gen Toyota Crown can shave off at least 220 lbs to improve performance, economy, braking, agility, and terminal gripe on the skid pan.
Thanks for the total family tree of platforms and chassis for every euro manufacturer. That must of taken some time to compose. But with all that I still didn’t see a strong case where you were able to show us how the Lexus N architecture was or is outdated compared to the it’s European competition. You posted a bunch of dates in reference to when the platform was first used, but no real evidence showing how these platforms are more rigid, lighter, or have superior weight distribution, suspension geometry etc. You did prove that all the Europeans have introduced newer platforms to replace their aging architecture since the Lexus N platform debuted in 2011-‘12, but how long a architecture has been in existence and being inferior aka outdated are two separate points in my opinion.
Below is example of what I mean Lexus is on par with its Euro competition in regards to weight savings, chassis rigidity, and weight balance. You don’t need to use much aluminum to make a light car architecture high strength steel serves well too. The N uses hardly any aluminum and remains competitive on all fronts stated below. Now these numbers are for the the smaller IS350 AWD vs other compact luxury cars. I wanted to use midsize competitiors to compare with the GS, but Audi’s new 2019 A6 is too new to be weighed independently of the manufacturer claims.
The GS falls in the same order when you compare it to the midsize competition from the same manufacturer. (With the 4GS weighing less than the equivalent Mercedes V6 AWD). It’s lighter than most of the euro cars it’s competes with 3977 lbs for the wet weight of the mostly steel AWD GS 350 F Sport vs the current 2018 aluminum intensive MRA based E43 AMG 4matic which weighs 4,309. I will assume the next gen GS will gain some weight, let’s say 150lbs with the GA-L transformation it’s only still 4,127 undercuts the E class and most likely it will be better balanced and lighter than the porker 2019 A6 3.0T once we get it’s wet weight. Lexus also uses a very nice suspension design for the front and rear of the GS which complements the N architecture even more so. I stand behind my original post the GS is not out dated in regards to architecture design. The GA-L GS will only get better.
Originally Posted by peteharvey
Back in the 80's and 90's, TMC had many variations in body styles - even the Toyota Crown and Lexus GS is an example of variation in body styles!
Back in the 80's and 90's, TMC also had a full range of modular in-line sixes in 2.0/2.5/3.0 in atmospheric, turbos and twin turbos.
It will be interesting to see if Lexus' 3.5L V6 TT is available in smaller capacities to be used in the Toyota Crown/Lexus GS and Lexus IS, because the larger capacity 3.5 V6 has higher reciprocating mass, hence it does not idle nor rev as smoothly, nor does it have the fuel economy of a 3.0 V6; it does have more power & torque though - which is great for the heavyweight 5LS, but I'm not sure if it's also great for the smaller & lighter IS & GS, and Lexus has a reputation for detuning their engines in GS & IS anyway.
Today, TMC seems to be really saving money to amass the highest equity of US$171 billion dollars compared to their peers - I guess...
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I can’t really speak on this new V35A-FTS dynamic force twin turbo V6 because I’ve been too busy to test drive a LS500, but all the YouTube car reviews I’ve viewed say the engine is quite torquey at very low rpms. I don’t believe I’ve seen any publications complaining the engine was unrefined or lacking in power. They said the engine had linear power delivery and worked well with the new 10 speed gearbox. I don’t see why it wouldn’t be possibly to downsize the engine to 3.0l for use in lighter, smaller cars such as the IS and RC etc. You mentioned because it’s a larger capacity engine it’s not fuel efficient as the competitor 3.0l offerings. Screen shot from fueleconomy.gov speaks a thousand words. We can only assume the GA-L GS with this same motor will top the 30mpg hwy of the LS500’s epa numbers. I suspect the GA-L GS will get 32-33 highway.
Originally Posted by RNM GS3
If and when new GS comes out, the base engine will be 4cyl turbo and the 3.5 V6 tt will be very rare if its even offered. It would not surprise me if they bring back the 3.5 NA v6.
Also this new TT V6's power figures are overstated as typical with Lexus based on instrumented tests of new LS.
What information do you have to support your theory that Lexus is not going to a fully turbocharged engine family with their next gen GA-L cars? I personally haven’t seen any rumors or leaked articles floating around that Lexus will continue to use the 2GR-FKS once all their rear wheel drive cars switch to GA-L. I doubt they will continue to use the FKS 3.5l after they discontinue the N platform cars. For one the Camry and Avalon are basically only 10 hp short and within 9lb-ft of the GS and IS and the Camry/Avalon don’t even need premium fuel.
Second reason the FKS engine is at its max limit for producing power. Tuners like RR racing are having a very hard time squeezing beyond 320hp at the crank without blowing up the motor.
My final point is all the European and even Acura and Infiniti are going turbo on their next gen 6 cylinder engines. In 2 years 350hp will be considered mediocre at best. I’m theorizing Lexus is going to a all turbo engine lineup in the coming years for the Euro & North American market. The exception might be where they use the FKS in a select few Asian countries. I think a poster said he just test drove a 2018 LS350 recently.
I want to add the area of which people live play a big deciding factor of what they drive as well. Majority of Americans live in big cities. Many city dwellers, especially LA city dwellers, are more likely to purchase BMW/Mercedes Benz because of the Hollywood culture - which is looking rich. An extra addition to this (also another reason why brand is insanely important) is calledproduct placement. In marketing, that is the placement of a brand within a TV Show, movie or song. If you noticed, rappers mostly talk about exotic car brands, Mercedes Benz and BMW. If rappers and singers talk about how they get into their Benz, the average consumer will be conditioned to think - "If a rapper has a Benz or BMW, then it must be a good brand."
I agree most import manufacturer of luxury cars sell much better in larger big cities such as Houston, Miami, NYC, LA etc. The rural markets middle America markets certainly do better with domestic makes such as Lincoln and Caddy. Also agree about product placement. Lexus won the contract to have their new LS500, LC500 exclusively featured in the $1 billion dollar grossing Black Panther film. I can guarantee you Lexus is inline already to try arrange for the GS or IS to be in the Black Panther sequel.
Originally Posted by BippuLexus
I don't think using the New N Platform to compare to the TNGA is a right way of concluding if something is "outdated" or "better". Just because something is "newer" doesn't mean the older product is "outdated". However - I do acknowledge that we are in a tech era now and anything not "new" is considered "outdated". That's why the phone industry is have a field day laughing all the way to the bank by preying on people's insecurities. Consumers today feel like they have to have latest tech or else they'll feel like its "outdated". That's why there so many people buying new iPhone or Androids every year.
While Lexus is slower to adopt the TNGA platform from Toyota, Toyota introduced the TNGA platform around the same time the Germans had.
TNGA and GA-L are really separate platforms. I’m not pointing a finger at you, I feel like based on your previous statement you already know this. This is just to clarify to others what’s going on.
So TNGA made its production debut many years ago now with 2016 Toyota Prius, it was followed by the CH-R, Camry etc. the idea behind TNGA is to share commonly used unseen parts that can be shared upon a broad spectrum of vehicles, things like powertrains, bolts and screws, electrical components, small modules on everything from the tiny Yaris all the way up to large Sienna. While TNGA does have some commonality with GA-L I don’t want the two to be confused as being the same. GA-L will be able to use some existing components from TNGA, but on a macro scale it’s overall design is so between the two chassis it’s hard to call them the similar. The point of TNGA is to save Toyota money and allow them to produce and launch brand new models on speedier time frame. They are investing billions in the plants in NA and Japan so when it comes time to build a new model the time used to retool the plant want be 6-8 months but more like 3-4. Toyota’s new plants will also be smaller and will use less automation. Technically they will be able to build multiple model on the same assemby line. You may ask how do I know all this? I was at the last Toyota wold conference in Japan. I actually visited one these plants and got a chance to ride in the Prius, CH-R months before it debuted in production form. My employer is a marketing affiliate of TMS. I know things, I’m not gonna speak any further to this point on future product because most of the future products I know are coming are still embargoed.
Originally Posted by BippuLexus
I agree with this 100%. As much as I would love the Lexus GS to have a detuned TTV6 from the LS, chances are they'll bring back the 2GR-FKS NA V6 engine. My belief is that because the 2GR-FKS engine is still new so they'll have no point to trash it just yet. Same thing for the 4 Turbo. It'll likely remain the same. This is because Lexus is a conservative company and its still a business at the end of the day. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept the Lexus GS on the New N platform for one more generation either.
I see your reasoning, but is disagree with some of your statement.. Toyota will not trash the FKS, its being used in almost all of Toyota’s core models Tacoma, Sienna, Camry, Avalon, as of late 2017. But they won’t continue to using this motor in future Lexi either. The engine is awesome but with the new Camry now making 301 hp on regular gas there is no way product planning will have the GS making 311hp for too long. It’s gotta to keep up with the Jones’s so to speak to stay relavent and competitive. With all the Germans and Infiniti knocking on 350hp and some of them knocking on 400hp Lexus can’t be more than 20hp behind the competition without looking ridiculous. I have a hunch this new engine is so good they will want to use it in various models just with different tunes. Kinda how Mercedes is doing with is 3.0l V6 367hp in the S class 396 in the E43.
Lexus did this with the FKS for the IS300 AWD and IS350 AWD. I suspect they will do a 350hp tune for the non F Sport V6 equipped GS and 416hp with the GS F Sport. The base 2.0l turbo will get a small boost to keep it competitive.
Originally Posted by BippuLexus
Chances are the Lexus GS will not get axed since the Toyota Crown is going to be released. I think the TNGA GA-K will be a better Lexus ES than before but I don't think it'll be better than the Lexus GS even if the Lexus GS still rides on the New N Platform. A platform and AWD alone will not make the ES better than the GS as a car. It will definitely pull more sales but it doesn't mean it'll be a better car overall. The Lexus ES sales numbers doesn't mean its a better car than the Lexus GS. It just means it was marketed better and placed in a better position to sell more. I also want to note - Toyota/Lexus isn't exactly known for great AWD systems. Their current AWD system is no Quattro or SH-AWD. The Lexus ES AWD system will have to be insanely good in order for people to even want to buy the option. I also want to note: Lexus better price the new Lexus ES perfectly too - they should try to keep it under 40K start. At the end of the day, no one wants to buy an expensive Camry in a suit.
I agree with you here too. The ES can never replace the GS. It’s limited dynamically. The ES will no doubt be more fun to drive when it moves to TNGA. But we are talking Buick Regal fun, not E43 AMG fun. The ES will probably adopt a F Sport designation too, but don’t expect rear wheel steering or hydraulically controlled anti roll bars on the option list.
I'The Lexus GS offers leather seats as standard while the 5 Series charge 1.4K extra and the E-class charge 1.6K extra. Lets not forget the lighting too - the 5 Series charge 5K extra for the package that includes the 5 Series with Full LED headlamps.
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lexus offers faux leather nuluxe as standard on the GS300.
Like I said, keeping up with the status quo, offering less value for the money.
Back then, Lexus was still offering real leather while the germans were using vinyl. Then lexus gave in and did the same.
Thanks for the total family tree of platforms and chassis for every euro manufacturer. That must of taken some time to compose. But with all that I still didn’t see a strong case where you were able to show us how the Lexus N architecture was or is outdated compared to the it’s European competition. You posted a bunch of dates in reference to when the platform was first used, but no real evidence showing how these platforms are more rigid, lighter, or have superior weight distribution, suspension geometry etc. You did prove that all the Europeans have introduced newer platforms to replace their aging architecture since the Lexus N platform debuted in 2011-‘12, but how long a architecture has been in existence and being inferior aka outdated are two separate points in my opinion.
Below is example of what I mean Lexus is on par with its Euro competition in regards to weight savings, chassis rigidity, and weight balance. You don’t need to use much aluminum to make a light car architecture high strength steel serves well too. The N uses hardly any aluminum and remains competitive on all fronts stated below. Now these numbers are for the the smaller IS350 AWD vs other compact luxury cars. I wanted to use midsize competitiors to compare with the GS, but Audi’s new 2019 A6 is too new to be weighed independently of the manufacturer claims.
The GS falls in the same order when you compare it to the midsize competition from the same manufacturer. (With the 4GS weighing less than the equivalent Mercedes V6 AWD). It’s lighter than most of the euro cars it’s competes with 3977 lbs for the wet weight of the mostly steel AWD GS 350 F Sport vs the current 2018 aluminum intensive MRA based E43 AMG 4matic which weighs 4,309. I will assume the next gen GS will gain some weight, let’s say 150lbs with the GA-L transformation it’s only still 4,127 undercuts the E class and most likely it will be better balanced and lighter than the porker 2019 A6 3.0T once we get it’s wet weight. Lexus also uses a very nice suspension design for the front and rear of the GS which complements the N architecture even more so. I stand behind my original post the GS is not out dated in regards to architecture design. The GA-L GS will only get better.
I can’t really speak on this new V35A-FTS dynamic force twin turbo V6 because I’ve been too busy to test drive a LS500, but all the YouTube car reviews I’ve viewed say the engine is quite torquey at very low rpms. I don’t believe I’ve seen any publications complaining the engine was unrefined or lacking in power. They said the engine had linear power delivery and worked well with the new 10 speed gearbox. I don’t see why it wouldn’t be possibly to downsize the engine to 3.0l for use in lighter, smaller cars such as the IS and RC etc. You mentioned because it’s a larger capacity engine it’s not fuel efficient as the competitor 3.0l offerings. Screen shot from fueleconomy.gov speaks a thousand words. We can only assume the GA-L GS with this same motor will top the 30mpg hwy of the LS500’s epa numbers. I suspect the GA-L GS will get 32-33 highway.
What information do you have to support your theory that Lexus is not going to a fully turbocharged engine family with their next gen GA-L cars? I personally haven’t seen any rumors or leaked articles floating around that Lexus will continue to use the 2GR-FKS once all their rear wheel drive cars switch to GA-L. I doubt they will continue to use the FKS 3.5l after they discontinue the N platform cars. For one the Camry and Avalon are basically only 10 hp short and within 9lb-ft of the GS and IS and the Camry/Avalon don’t even need premium fuel.
Second reason the FKS engine is at its max limit for producing power. Tuners like RR racing are having a very hard time squeezing beyond 320hp at the crank without blowing up the motor.
My final point is all the European and even Acura and Infiniti are going turbo on their next gen 6 cylinder engines. In 2 years 350hp will be considered mediocre at best. I’m theorizing Lexus is going to a all turbo engine lineup in the coming years for the Euro & North American market. The exception might be where they use the FKS in a select few Asian countries. I think a poster said he just test drove a 2018 LS350 recently.
+1 I just want to say your post is beautifully written. I agree with your post about the platform architecture. I was trying to say the same thing but typed it not nearly as good as you did. Its true. How long a platform architecture has in existence doesn't mean the architecture is better or worst than the platform before it. There are examples of car companies creating platforms that are newer but actually turns out not to be not as good as the previous platform. Date of birth doesn't equal better or worst platform.
Good examples. I didn't notice that the New N Platform IS actually weighs roughly around the same weight as the newer architecture Benz, Audi and BMW. This is a good example of how, despite BMW/Audi/Benz being on a newer platform, they still end up weighing roughly the same. Especially when these modular platforms were suppose to guarantee a weight drop.
For me personally - I don't have any proof of why I think the Lexus GS will still run the 2GR-FKS in the next gen. Its just more of assumptions because we can't truly predict the future. My businesses assumptions makes me think the Lexus 2GR-FKS will definitely keep the 2GR-FKS until the 5th generation Lexus GS is 2 years old - kinda like how the Lexus IS250 changed engines in 2016. I think they'll do this because the 2GR-FKS is still relatively new, its still somewhat competitive and they want to milk it. This would give them time to up-sell the Lexus LS/LC TTV6 and milk it. I mean - Lexus milked the IS250 engine for like 8 years even when it was under-powered compared to the competition since 2008.
Infiniti already has their TTV6 since 2016. Based on my business assumptions - their TTV6 is unlikely going to change in their next generation Q50 because the engine is already underrated to begin with and they want to milk it. They will likely introduce the next gen Q50 2.0T under their first VC-Turbo 4, which I think they should have done a long time ago. Its stupid how an Infiniti entry-level engine forces you to have a Mercedes-Benz engine. I truly think Infiniti Qs would have sold more if they had the option of a VC-Turbo along side a TTV6. Question though: has Acura confirmed of a Turbo V6? I don't think they have. I think they are confirmed for a Turbo 4 for the RDX - a 272 HP engine - which will have less hp but more torque than the outgoing V6. I think this 272HP Turbo 4 will make its way into the TLX at some point to replace the V6.
Side note: I honestly think Acura messed up big time years ago. They could have introduced Turbo 4 onto the TSX with the RDX engine. They would have boosted sales like rockets and crack if they did that.
lexus offers faux leather nuluxe as standard on the GS300.
Like I said, keeping up with the status quo, offering less value for the money.
Back then, Lexus was still offering real leather while the germans were using vinyl. Then lexus gave in and did the same.
Only, unlike the Germans, when Lexus did it with the NuLuxe, they did it right. IMO, it's difficult to tell NuLuxe from the real stuff......except that the cows smile a lot more.
Can you elaborate on this? I assumed the RWD architecture of the GS would provide better weight balance and the longer dash to axle ratio of RWD? Does TNGA somehow address this?
The flexible nature of the TNGA will make the distinction between FWD and RWD a moot point. Also, if RWD handling and balance is such a priority, we would see much higher sales of the GS. If the ES handles somewhere near the current GS with better powertrains and refinement at a lower price, with AWD, where will the GS fit in? The new LS isnt as spacious as one thinks. I sat in both the regular and hybrid and its quite intimate when it comes to interior room. There's literally no room to fit another model between the LS and ES.
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Chances are the Lexus GS will not get axed since the Toyota Crown is going to be released. I think the TNGA GA-K will be a better Lexus ES than before but I don't think it'll be better than the Lexus GS even if the Lexus GS still rides on the New N Platform. A platform and AWD alone will not make the ES better than the GS as a car. It will definitely pull more sales but it doesn't mean it'll be a better car overall. The Lexus ES sales numbers doesn't mean its a better car than the Lexus GS. It just means it was marketed better and placed in a better position to sell more. I also want to note - Toyota/Lexus isn't exactly known for great AWD systems. Their current AWD system is no Quattro or SH-AWD. The Lexus ES AWD system will have to be insanely good in order for people to even want to buy the option. I also want to note: Lexus better price the new Lexus ES perfectly too - they should try to keep it under 40K start. At the end of the day, no one wants to buy an expensive Camry in a suit.
The current GS AWD system is nothing to write home about. The new RAV4 seems to have a new system and on paper seems quite good so it can certainly be adapter to the new ES. Just because the new Crown is getting release is irrelevant. JDM's cars arent always available in other countries. All signs point to the demise of the GS. Can you say "well its just 1 article." But I can always say well you dont have anything refuting it other than your own desire and opinions.
I agree most import manufacturer of luxury cars sell much better in larger big cities such as Houston, Miami, NYC, LA etc. The rural markets middle America markets certainly do better with domestic makes such as Lincoln and Caddy. Also agree about product placement. Lexus won the contract to have their new LS500, LC500 exclusively featured in the $1 billion dollar grossing Black Panther film. I can guarantee you Lexus is inline already to try arrange for the GS or IS to be in the Black Panther sequel.
TNGA and GA-L are really separate platforms. I’m not pointing a finger at you, I feel like based on your previous statement you already know this. This is just to clarify to others what’s going on.
So TNGA made its production debut many years ago now with 2016 Toyota Prius, it was followed by the CH-R, Camry etc. the idea behind TNGA is to share commonly used unseen parts that can be shared upon a broad spectrum of vehicles, things like powertrains, bolts and screws, electrical components, small modules on everything from the tiny Yaris all the way up to large Sienna. While TNGA does have some commonality with GA-L I don’t want the two to be confused as being the same. GA-L will be able to use some existing components from TNGA, but on a macro scale it’s overall design is so between the two chassis it’s hard to call them the similar. The point of TNGA is to save Toyota money and allow them to produce and launch brand new models on speedier time frame. They are investing billions in the plants in NA and Japan so when it comes time to build a new model the time used to retool the plant want be 6-8 months but more like 3-4. Toyota’s new plants will also be smaller and will use less automation. Technically they will be able to build multiple model on the same assemby line. You may ask how do I know all this? I was at the last Toyota wold conference in Japan. I actually visited one these plants and got a chance to ride in the Prius, CH-R months before it debuted in production form. My employer is a marketing affiliate of TMS. I know things, I’m not gonna speak any further to this point on future product because most of the future products I know are coming are still embargoed.
I see your reasoning, but is disagree with some of your statement.. Toyota will not trash the FKS, its being used in almost all of Toyota’s core models Tacoma, Sienna, Camry, Avalon, as of late 2017. But they won’t continue to using this motor in future Lexi either. The engine is awesome but with the new Camry now making 301 hp on regular gas there is no way product planning will have the GS making 311hp for too long. It’s gotta to keep up with the Jones’s so to speak to stay relavent and competitive. With all the Germans and Infiniti knocking on 350hp and some of them knocking on 400hp Lexus can’t be more than 20hp behind the competition without looking ridiculous. I have a hunch this new engine is so good they will want to use it in various models just with different tunes. Kinda how Mercedes is doing with is 3.0l V6 367hp in the S class 396 in the E43.
Lexus did this with the FKS for the IS300 AWD and IS350 AWD. I suspect they will do a 350hp tune for the non F Sport V6 equipped GS and 416hp with the GS F Sport. The base 2.0l turbo will get a small boost to keep it competitive.
I agree with you here too. The ES can never replace the GS. It’s limited dynamically. The ES will no doubt be more fun to drive when it moves to TNGA. But we are talking Buick Regal fun, not E43 AMG fun. The ES will probably adopt a F Sport designation too, but don’t expect rear wheel steering or hydraulically controlled anti roll bars on the option list.
I think Lexus did good with the Black Panther product placement. Black Panther is a huge movie and its grossing a lot of money. Lexus has to keep this up because product placement doesn't work if its a one time thing. They have to keep hammering it in and it'll stick over time to the average consumer. I have heard so many songs with singers saying Rarri, Lambo, Benz, Bimmer, but not one Lexus.
Yeah. Might be the way I written it. The GA-C, GA-K and GA-L are all different. They are just part of the TNGA.
Its totally cool. We just have a difference of opinion here. I think the 2GR-FKS Lexus GS's competition pretty solidly still against - E-Class, 5 Series, Infiniti Q70 and Audi A6. The 2GR-FKS Lexus GS is faster than the E-Class and Audi A6 while slower than the 5 Series and Infiniti Q70 (given that they are all match the appropriate trim level and making sure they are priced the roughly the same). However - the Lexus GS lacks power options. That's one of Lexus' biggest mistakes here. I agree with you here. They should offer something more than the 2GR-FKS. I think they are going to keep the 2GR-FKS and hopefully introduce a more powerful Lexus GS400 with TTV6 to space the gap between the GS and the GS-F. That way they can have something at the entry-level, decent, strong, and powerful.
While that's a great idea to have a Standard GS with a lower HP and having the Lexus GS F-Sport have a higher HP, I don't think that'll happen because Lexus' F-Sport package is an appearance package much like the Mercedes Benz AMG Line package. I also think it'll be too confusing for buyers to note 3 power changes from Standard, F-Sport and GS-F. Its more likely they'll introduce a GS400 with the TTV6 to make it more simple rather than changing the theme of the F-Sport package.
Note: Ahh! I didn't mean trash it by getting rid of it all together. I meant just trash it for the GS.
Originally Posted by pman6
lexus offers faux leather nuluxe as standard on the GS300.
Like I said, keeping up with the status quo, offering less value for the money.
Back then, Lexus was still offering real leather while the germans were using vinyl. Then lexus gave in and did the same.
I'm talking about the Lexus GS300 F-Sport. http://www.lexus.com/build-your-lexus/#!/series/GS/
"leather with Naguri Aluminum Trim"
^^^^ I honestly believe any non-FSport model of Lexus is not worth buying. Why OPT out of the LFA-Gauges? F-Sport package is basically their LFA-Inspired design package. Similar to the M Sport Design Trim on the 3 Series - its their M Design package. I just want to point something extra too. Someone on here (I don't remember who) claimed BMW doesn't offer an appearance package that doesn't give performance enhancements - well they do - and its the M Sport Design Trim. A lot of car makers are guilty of this. Acura: A-Spec. BMW: M Sport Design. Audi: Black Optics Plus Package. Mercedes Benz: AMG Line. Lexus isn't the first one to do this and won't be the last.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Only, unlike the Germans, when Lexus did it with the NuLuxe, they did it right. IMO, it's difficult to tell NuLuxe from the real stuff......except that the cows smile a lot more.
Agreed. The Lexus NuLuxe trim is hard to even tell if its actual leather or not. Being as a person that is so "into" cars, I was fooled the first time I sat in the 3rd gen Lexus IS. In the beginning when the 2014 Lexus first came out, I thought the IS had real leather. It was only until I googled it then I realized the leather was actually fake.
Nowadays - leather seats aren't even really considered luxury anymore since its offered on almost any vehicle now. I see Lexus' NuLuxe is a win-win for the most cases. You can trick majority of the population that is real leather, its easy to clean, its eco-friendly, and you are saving a cows life.
Originally Posted by situman
The current GS AWD system is nothing to write home about. The new RAV4 seems to have a new system and on paper seems quite good so it can certainly be adapter to the new ES. Just because the new Crown is getting release is irrelevant. JDM's cars arent always available in other countries. All signs point to the demise of the GS. Can you say "well its just 1 article." But I can always say well you dont have anything refuting it other than your own desire and opinions.
I see where you are coming from of how JDM products aren't everywhere in the world. A perfect example of this was the Civic Type R till just recently. However - the Toyota Crown releasing is significant sign because the Lexus GS is based on the Crown. I'm not trying to say because the Crown is released, the GS must be released. I'm more on the side of its a good sign the Lexus GS will get a redesign if they have a Toyota Crown coming out. But - I also understand they don't have to continue the Lexus GS even if they have a Toyota Crown.
The flexible nature of the TNGA will make the distinction between FWD and RWD a moot point. Also, if RWD handling and balance is such a priority, we would see much higher sales of the GS. If the ES handles somewhere near the current GS with better powertrains and refinement at a lower price, with AWD, where will the GS fit in? The new LS isnt as spacious as one thinks. I sat in both the regular and hybrid and its quite intimate when it comes to interior room. There's literally no room to fit another model between the LS and ES.
Completely disagree. FWD will always feel like FWD and much less sporty than a proper RWD setup. The new Camry does not feel nearly as well planted and sporty as my IS350 F-sport as the weight is way too heavy up-front even on the newer platform (Lexus dealers are starting to use them as loaners). FWD will always feel vastly inferior to a proper RWD setup in luxury cars and adding AWD still won't make it less nose heavy and sporty. I wish Lexus just killed their FWD derivatives as it dilutes the brand with inferior products.
04-02-18, 06:10 AM
