keyless cars killing people
05-16-18, 01:02 PM
#46
Lexus Champion
I'm totally keyless at this point, so I do have to pay a little attention to what I'm doing. I don't have a keychain with multiple keys to act as a reminder that I may have left something behind. I almost got the slim wallet key card so that I didn't even need to remember my fob, just my wallet, which I sometimes forget.
The article I read said some people are intentionally leaving their fobs in the cars at home. I definitely wouldn't, but I can see an argument for it. If it's locked in the garage it's (relatively) safe. Keys have to go somewhere. Corner or the kitchen counter, spot by the door, left in the car, whatever. No need to lock the car either. I think this could defeat a lot of the safety features of the cars warning someone the car was still on, or keys still inside. I think if you do stuff like this, the few dings or buzzes you might get from the car get ignored as common background noise at some point.
Article said Ford will turn off if left at constant idle for 60 minutes regardless where the keys were. I expect you could still die if you were in the garage, but not likely if you were in the house. I'm not suggesting this is needed, just interesting.
I've been wondering if hybrids of different types could be more prone to this. They can be totally silent at rest. There may be scenarios where the engine comes on later to charge the battery. Maybe if the air/fan/radio/lights/seat heater were slowly eating battery.
Also wonder about a certain amount of off-gassing from some of the plug-in vehicles. Haven't heard anything bad yet though.
The article I read said some people are intentionally leaving their fobs in the cars at home. I definitely wouldn't, but I can see an argument for it. If it's locked in the garage it's (relatively) safe. Keys have to go somewhere. Corner or the kitchen counter, spot by the door, left in the car, whatever. No need to lock the car either. I think this could defeat a lot of the safety features of the cars warning someone the car was still on, or keys still inside. I think if you do stuff like this, the few dings or buzzes you might get from the car get ignored as common background noise at some point.
Article said Ford will turn off if left at constant idle for 60 minutes regardless where the keys were. I expect you could still die if you were in the garage, but not likely if you were in the house. I'm not suggesting this is needed, just interesting.
I've been wondering if hybrids of different types could be more prone to this. They can be totally silent at rest. There may be scenarios where the engine comes on later to charge the battery. Maybe if the air/fan/radio/lights/seat heater were slowly eating battery.
Also wonder about a certain amount of off-gassing from some of the plug-in vehicles. Haven't heard anything bad yet though.
As to hybrids being quiet, I cannot speak for all of them but can tell you my Highlander is still quite noisy, even with the engine off. Lots of "whirring" going on.
05-16-18, 01:07 PM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
Sad to hear about people leaving their cars running and dying. I think we are at the point that a carbon monoxide detector could be added to a car which shuts off the engine as there would be a certain threshold that would have to be met in an enclosed space.
05-16-18, 01:11 PM
#48
Lexus Test Driver
To your point, I guess we'd have to know how many of those 28 fatalities had cars with an auto start/stop system to know if that played a part or not. I'm guessing that many of them did. If Lexus/Toyota represented a large portion, I have to wonder if this is happening mostly with the Hybrids.
We know that Toyota and Lexus have an audible signal outside the car if you take the key fob out of the car without turning the car off. Do you know if there are any manufacturers that do not have an audible signal?
We know that Toyota and Lexus have an audible signal outside the car if you take the key fob out of the car without turning the car off. Do you know if there are any manufacturers that do not have an audible signal?
05-16-18, 01:16 PM
#49
Lexus Test Driver
I'm totally keyless at this point, so I do have to pay a little attention to what I'm doing. I don't have a keychain with multiple keys to act as a reminder that I may have left something behind. I almost got the slim wallet key card so that I didn't even need to remember my fob, just my wallet, which I sometimes forget.
The article I read said some people are intentionally leaving their fobs in the cars at home. I definitely wouldn't, but I can see an argument for it. If it's locked in the garage it's (relatively) safe. Keys have to go somewhere. Corner or the kitchen counter, spot by the door, left in the car, whatever. No need to lock the car either. I think this could defeat a lot of the safety features of the cars warning someone the car was still on, or keys still inside. I think if you do stuff like this, the few dings or buzzes you might get from the car get ignored as common background noise at some point.
Article said Ford will turn off if left at constant idle for 60 minutes regardless where the keys were. I expect you could still die if you were in the garage, but not likely if you were in the house. I'm not suggesting this is needed, just interesting.
I've been wondering if hybrids of different types could be more prone to this. They can be totally silent at rest. There may be scenarios where the engine comes on later to charge the battery. Maybe if the air/fan/radio/lights/seat heater were slowly eating battery.
Also wonder about a certain amount of off-gassing from some of the plug-in vehicles. Haven't heard anything bad yet though.
The article I read said some people are intentionally leaving their fobs in the cars at home. I definitely wouldn't, but I can see an argument for it. If it's locked in the garage it's (relatively) safe. Keys have to go somewhere. Corner or the kitchen counter, spot by the door, left in the car, whatever. No need to lock the car either. I think this could defeat a lot of the safety features of the cars warning someone the car was still on, or keys still inside. I think if you do stuff like this, the few dings or buzzes you might get from the car get ignored as common background noise at some point.
Article said Ford will turn off if left at constant idle for 60 minutes regardless where the keys were. I expect you could still die if you were in the garage, but not likely if you were in the house. I'm not suggesting this is needed, just interesting.
I've been wondering if hybrids of different types could be more prone to this. They can be totally silent at rest. There may be scenarios where the engine comes on later to charge the battery. Maybe if the air/fan/radio/lights/seat heater were slowly eating battery.
Also wonder about a certain amount of off-gassing from some of the plug-in vehicles. Haven't heard anything bad yet though.
BMW has a safety feature with its auto stop/start system that if the engine goes into stop mode, but the ignition is still on, and you open the driver's door, you need to actually press the start button again to restart the engine--putting the car in drive or reverse will not cause the engine to re-start. I can't speak to other cars, or hybrids, if they have this safety feature.
05-16-18, 01:43 PM
#50
Lexus Champion
This is the combo that I'm guessing is really at the heart of this issue. You own a hybrid or other car with auto stop/start, you pull into your garage, place the car in park and the engine shuts off but the car is still on, you forget to turn the car off, and you leave the fob in the cup holder. After awhile, the engine kicks back on.
BMW has a safety feature with its auto stop/start system that if the engine goes into stop mode, but the ignition is still on, and you open the driver's door, you need to actually press the start button again to restart the engine--putting the car in drive or reverse will not cause the engine to re-start. I can't speak to other cars, or hybrids, if they have this safety feature.
BMW has a safety feature with its auto stop/start system that if the engine goes into stop mode, but the ignition is still on, and you open the driver's door, you need to actually press the start button again to restart the engine--putting the car in drive or reverse will not cause the engine to re-start. I can't speak to other cars, or hybrids, if they have this safety feature.
05-16-18, 01:44 PM
#51
This is the combo that I'm guessing is really at the heart of this issue. You own a hybrid or other car with auto stop/start, you pull into your garage, place the car in park and the engine shuts off but the car is still on, you forget to turn the car off, and you leave the fob in the cup holder. After awhile, the engine kicks back on.
BMW has a safety feature with its auto stop/start system that if the engine goes into stop mode, but the ignition is still on, and you open the driver's door, you need to actually press the start button again to restart the engine--putting the car in drive or reverse will not cause the engine to re-start. I can't speak to other cars, or hybrids, if they have this safety feature.
BMW has a safety feature with its auto stop/start system that if the engine goes into stop mode, but the ignition is still on, and you open the driver's door, you need to actually press the start button again to restart the engine--putting the car in drive or reverse will not cause the engine to re-start. I can't speak to other cars, or hybrids, if they have this safety feature.
I would guess it happens with older vehicles but also it has happened with normal keys since there are cars, i wonder how much compared to start stop button.
05-17-18, 05:34 AM
#52
Lexus Test Driver
On the ES hybrid, the car will beep inside the cabin if you bring the key out with the power on. It doesn't do anything if the key is inside and you walk off with the car on.
In that state, the car could keep running for days with the hybrid system on and the engine ready to run when needed. It could possibly run for weeks on a full tank. Hybrids make good emergency generators provided you run them in the open.
In that state, the car could keep running for days with the hybrid system on and the engine ready to run when needed. It could possibly run for weeks on a full tank. Hybrids make good emergency generators provided you run them in the open.
05-17-18, 05:49 AM
#53
Lexus Fanatic
Ask Jeff Bezos what to do. What I find like him or don't like him (I could understand not liking him for his prices and business practices), usually, any of their processes make 100% sense and are thought through. Maybe a person has to go to some sort of school and get certified if they purchase a car with a push button stop/start? There are laws that have been around for 25+ years, such as wipers on, headlights on, that people don't follow in 2018. There are still people driving around with hands at 10 and 2, and it was about 27 years ago that people were instructed not to do that. My hunch is it's an uphill climb.
05-17-18, 07:13 PM
#54
Agree with most that it is absurd on those that leave their car "on" to have this be an issue...... (key or keyless...)
But....... , I will say that I have not been a fan of any keyless entry or start/stop system like the one we have on the '14 LS. I do like the transmitter features to lock/unlock and open the trunk that are on most/all fob-keys (dating back quite a ways), but having a fob in a pocket (or purse for the wife) and walking up to a car and opening the door and starting the car without a deliberate action is unsettling to me.
At the risk at being flamed, that is just my opinion and while going back to keys to start a car will be going backwards to a lot of folks it makes more sense to me to use a key .... (The times my wife cannot find her keys in her purse are mounting since she rarely needs them.....).
But....... , I will say that I have not been a fan of any keyless entry or start/stop system like the one we have on the '14 LS. I do like the transmitter features to lock/unlock and open the trunk that are on most/all fob-keys (dating back quite a ways), but having a fob in a pocket (or purse for the wife) and walking up to a car and opening the door and starting the car without a deliberate action is unsettling to me.
At the risk at being flamed, that is just my opinion and while going back to keys to start a car will be going backwards to a lot of folks it makes more sense to me to use a key .... (The times my wife cannot find her keys in her purse are mounting since she rarely needs them.....).
05-17-18, 07:55 PM
#56
Lexus Fanatic
Agree with most that it is absurd on those that leave their car "on" to have this be an issue...... (key or keyless...)
But....... , I will say that I have not been a fan of any keyless entry or start/stop system like the one we have on the '14 LS. I do like the transmitter features to lock/unlock and open the trunk that are on most/all fob-keys (dating back quite a ways), but having a fob in a pocket (or purse for the wife) and walking up to a car and opening the door and starting the car without a deliberate action is unsettling to me.
At the risk at being flamed, that is just my opinion and while going back to keys to start a car will be going backwards to a lot of folks it makes more sense to me to use a key .... (The times my wife cannot find her keys in her purse are mounting since she rarely needs them.....).
But....... , I will say that I have not been a fan of any keyless entry or start/stop system like the one we have on the '14 LS. I do like the transmitter features to lock/unlock and open the trunk that are on most/all fob-keys (dating back quite a ways), but having a fob in a pocket (or purse for the wife) and walking up to a car and opening the door and starting the car without a deliberate action is unsettling to me.
At the risk at being flamed, that is just my opinion and while going back to keys to start a car will be going backwards to a lot of folks it makes more sense to me to use a key .... (The times my wife cannot find her keys in her purse are mounting since she rarely needs them.....).
Keys yes aren’t coming back. Phone app enabled keyless entry and start is the next step.
05-17-18, 09:43 PM
#57
Heres a question, why does your wife need to find her keys? Now that I have the credit card key for my LS, I don’t even carry keys. We have combination locks on our house, don’t need keys.
Keys yes aren’t coming back. Phone app enabled keyless entry and start is the next step.
I get car keys are not coming back... Does not change my view on fobs... I can see your point on smart phone apps but not sure how safe those will be initially... I already have home security video, HVAC, sprinkler, and even garage door smart phone apps..... One more will not be a problem but it will be a while before I own a vehicle that supports that....
As far as your contributions to this and many other threads, I almost always agree with you and do appreciate your insights.
05-18-18, 05:25 AM
#58
Lexus Fanatic
LOL... Well, we have yet to make the jump to combo locks on the entry doors and once in a great while she has to dig down to give me her keys since I do not haul around the fob for her LS460. (My key ring has the SC and LS430 keys on it so it is large enough....).
I get car keys are not coming back... Does not change my view on fobs... I can see your point on smart phone apps but not sure how safe those will be initially... I already have home security video, HVAC, sprinkler, and even garage door smart phone apps..... One more will not be a problem but it will be a while before I own a vehicle that supports that.....
I get car keys are not coming back... Does not change my view on fobs... I can see your point on smart phone apps but not sure how safe those will be initially... I already have home security video, HVAC, sprinkler, and even garage door smart phone apps..... One more will not be a problem but it will be a while before I own a vehicle that supports that.....
What you need is the credit card key for her LS460. Its about the thickness of 3 credit cards and just goes in your wallet. What I did with the fob to my wife's van is I just stopped carrying it, and I hung it on a hook in the foyer of my house. Its a little annoying from time to time when I forget to grab it and head out to drive it, but if I'm just going out to it to get something it has an app on my phone I can use to unlock it.
05-18-18, 05:41 AM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
Agree with most that it is absurd on those that leave their car "on" to have this be an issue...... (key or keyless...)
But....... , I will say that I have not been a fan of any keyless entry or start/stop system like the one we have on the '14 LS. I do like the transmitter features to lock/unlock and open the trunk that are on most/all fob-keys (dating back quite a ways), but having a fob in a pocket (or purse for the wife) and walking up to a car and opening the door and starting the car without a deliberate action is unsettling to me.
At the risk at being flamed, that is just my opinion and while going back to keys to start a car will be going backwards to a lot of folks it makes more sense to me to use a key .... (The times my wife cannot find her keys in her purse are mounting since she rarely needs them.....).
But....... , I will say that I have not been a fan of any keyless entry or start/stop system like the one we have on the '14 LS. I do like the transmitter features to lock/unlock and open the trunk that are on most/all fob-keys (dating back quite a ways), but having a fob in a pocket (or purse for the wife) and walking up to a car and opening the door and starting the car without a deliberate action is unsettling to me.
At the risk at being flamed, that is just my opinion and while going back to keys to start a car will be going backwards to a lot of folks it makes more sense to me to use a key .... (The times my wife cannot find her keys in her purse are mounting since she rarely needs them.....).
One bit of extra info--attached to the key, was a Giant Supermarket bar code.
The vast majority of partiers said no need to do anything, you lost your keys in a Walmart, how is anybody going to find out what house the key is for? Plus Giant isn't going to tell anybody the address.
I went to Giant with a neighbor's keytag, and said to the courtesy desk, "I moved a couple months ago, can you tell me what address you show?" And the girl gave me the neighbor's address.
I think I made the right decision in rekeying the locks. And it was VERY DIFFICULT to do, one time springs and pins all over the place. But I wasn 't going to pay a locksmith again. And the kit is very obscure because nobody really want's you to diy, they want to charge you $180 for the first lock, plus $50 add'l. I think the kit was $8 online.
I'm not opposed to keys, but I do like fobs/smart keys.
05-18-18, 11:29 AM
#60
Lexus Test Driver
It's not insignificant if it's your family member. IF GM said only 28 people were killed by their faulty ignition, you wouldn't be satisfied with "statistically insignificant."
BUT--I don't see this as a defect; this is user error, pure and simple.
BUT--I don't see this as a defect; this is user error, pure and simple.