All-new 2019 Lexus ES to debut at Beijing Motorshow
04-11-18, 05:19 PM
#76
Lexus Test Driver
That's true. I just looked up the EU-Spec C-HR and JDM-Spec C-HR, they both have sequential turn signals but different from each other though. That's not too surprising since US regulations are harsher regarding turn signals.
04-11-18, 06:16 PM
#77
Lexus Fanatic
I do not remember things as in much detail, I am getting older lol or perhaps I am old. I think the radar cruise was a first, but perhaps LS430 had it first. I guess Avalon is the first announced to have Apple Car Play. Other things I remember in the past, 4Runner was the first Toyota I know of to have dual VVTi, GX, 4Runner, Tundra and Sequoia all had VVTi on the 4.7 (an engine I am very familiar with) before the LX and Land Cruiser. Tundra introduced the world to the 5.7 and 6 speed. So not everything debuts in a Lexus. Some stuff debuts in a Toyota and I think it should be this way.
04-11-18, 06:37 PM
#78
Lexus Fanatic
Again not to go off track too much about ES vs GS debate.
ES sells more primarily because dealers carry a lot more of them like 10 to 1. It doesn't sell more because its a better car.
I guarantee if a salesman showed a midsize buyer the 2 cars side by side and gave them a test drive back to back - that buyer would consider paying more to get the GS! Sales ppl don't do that for the most part - they see what they have in stock and follow the least form of resistance which is ES because its cheaper and bigger.
There are faults with the GS but the dealers do it no justice. To have a newcomer like G80 outsell it every month is just embarrassing. GS deserves better treatment from Lexus.
ES sells more primarily because dealers carry a lot more of them like 10 to 1. It doesn't sell more because its a better car.
I guarantee if a salesman showed a midsize buyer the 2 cars side by side and gave them a test drive back to back - that buyer would consider paying more to get the GS! Sales ppl don't do that for the most part - they see what they have in stock and follow the least form of resistance which is ES because its cheaper and bigger.
There are faults with the GS but the dealers do it no justice. To have a newcomer like G80 outsell it every month is just embarrassing. GS deserves better treatment from Lexus.
For people on this forum to question merits of GS compared to ES is crazy. GS is in a different league by any objective measure of what a luxury sedan should be. There is a reason why it costs more.
Exactly. All one has to do is sit in a GS and sit in an ES and its immediately apparent that the GS is a better car with better materials, more solid build. The feel of the doors, all the switchgear, I could go on and on.
Just because something sells better doesn't mean it is better. Look at the terrible product we had in the Camry for years, literally the least appealing car in the segment in my opinion yet it sold the best. Like I said, people like mediocrity.
Its not about the ES vs the GS, its about making a case for why the GS still needs to exist. That mainstream, non enthusiast buyer will always be there for the ES. What we need to demand as enthusiasts and as people who understand why the GS is better is that Lexus continues to create cars that are designed for us as well, otherwise it really is time to relegate the brand to the level of Acura and move on to other companies who are working much harder to provide products that appeal to us.
The LS is such a car, for all the things I dislike about it, so I have hope they won't abandon the GS.
The ES is a fine car, but its comparable to a Buick LaCrosse, a Volvo S90, a Lincoln MKX, a Toyota Avalon. Its not a "real" luxury vehicle. Thats fine when Lexus has another car to compete against "real" entries like the 5 Series, E Class, A6, etc. No FWD ES, however nicely appointed can hold a candle to those cars because it its core its still a Camry. For Lexus to just abandon that segment which defines the luxury sedan in America would really be a shame.
04-11-18, 06:44 PM
#79
The ES is a fine car, but its comparable to a Buick LaCrosse, a Volvo S90, a Lincoln MKX, a Toyota Avalon. Its not a "real" luxury vehicle. Thats fine when Lexus has another car to compete against "real" entries like the 5 Series, E Class, A6, etc. No FWD ES, however nicely appointed can hold a candle to those cars because it its core its still a Camry. For Lexus to just abandon that segment which defines the luxury sedan in America would really be a shame.
04-11-18, 06:45 PM
#80
Lexus Fanatic
I always get my X's and Z's mixed up lol
04-11-18, 06:46 PM
#81
Lexus Fanatic
Exactly. All one has to do is sit in a GS and sit in an ES and its immediately apparent that the GS is a better car with better materials, more solid build. The feel of the doors, all the switchgear, I could go on and on.
Just because something sells better doesn't mean it is better. Look at the terrible product we had in the Camry for years, literally the least appealing car in the segment in my opinion yet it sold the best. Like I said, people like mediocrity.
Its not about the ES vs the GS, its about making a case for why the GS still needs to exist. That mainstream, non enthusiast buyer will always be there for the ES. What we need to demand as enthusiasts and as people who understand why the GS is better is that Lexus continues to create cars that are designed for us as well, otherwise it really is time to relegate the brand to the level of Acura and move on to other companies who are working much harder to provide products that appeal to us.
The LS is such a car, for all the things I dislike about it, so I have hope they won't abandon the GS.
The ES is a fine car, but its comparable to a Buick LaCrosse, a Volvo S90, a Lincoln MKX, a Toyota Avalon. Its not a "real" luxury vehicle. Thats fine when Lexus has another car to compete against "real" entries like the 5 Series, E Class, A6, etc. No FWD ES, however nicely appointed can hold a candle to those cars because it its core its still a Camry. For Lexus to just abandon that segment which defines the luxury sedan in America would really be a shame.
Just because something sells better doesn't mean it is better. Look at the terrible product we had in the Camry for years, literally the least appealing car in the segment in my opinion yet it sold the best. Like I said, people like mediocrity.
Its not about the ES vs the GS, its about making a case for why the GS still needs to exist. That mainstream, non enthusiast buyer will always be there for the ES. What we need to demand as enthusiasts and as people who understand why the GS is better is that Lexus continues to create cars that are designed for us as well, otherwise it really is time to relegate the brand to the level of Acura and move on to other companies who are working much harder to provide products that appeal to us.
The LS is such a car, for all the things I dislike about it, so I have hope they won't abandon the GS.
The ES is a fine car, but its comparable to a Buick LaCrosse, a Volvo S90, a Lincoln MKX, a Toyota Avalon. Its not a "real" luxury vehicle. Thats fine when Lexus has another car to compete against "real" entries like the 5 Series, E Class, A6, etc. No FWD ES, however nicely appointed can hold a candle to those cars because it its core its still a Camry. For Lexus to just abandon that segment which defines the luxury sedan in America would really be a shame.
04-11-18, 06:51 PM
#82
Lexus Fanatic
I.e. people don't cross shop the ES and a BMW, or an Audi, or a Mercedes, because they don't offer anything comparable. That consumer is not the same consumer as the one that buys those cars, they're a near luxury consumer who is also looking at Buicks, etc.
I don't have any problem with that vehicle existing in the Lexus lineup, nor do I have an issue with people buying that vehicle...I bought 2 in my life. My ONLY issue comes if Lexus does what I am afraid they will do and discontinues the GS and tries to say this new ES can compete with cars like the 5 Series, E Class A6 etc...because it can't. At its very core it is inferior to those cars, and Lexus pretending it isn't is just a joke.
Right now they don't pretend the ES is anything that it isn't.
Plenty of people don't consider my LS a real luxury car because its made by Toyota. And perhaps to people who buy V12 sedans and Bentleys and Rolls Royces, it isn't. I agree, its not what those cars are, and the ES isn't what the cars we discussing are. Having had all of these models is what makes that statement so clear to me. The feel of the ES vs the GS or LS is night and day. The ES lacks the "premium feel" those cars have in spades. Will the new one be different? Perhaps, but it will always be a transverse FWD car and that is always going to hold it back from consumers who really want a truly premium vehicle and understand the difference.
Last edited by SW17LS; 04-11-18 at 06:57 PM.
04-11-18, 06:58 PM
#83
Lexus Fanatic
Its not baiting at all, I had two ES's remember. The issue with the ES is that its on a Toyota derived transverse FWD platform that is used by a litany of Toyota models, it uses a powertrain that is simply the exact same powertrain used in a litany of Toyota models, and it doesn't compete with any cars made by "tier 1" auto manufacturers, it competes with cars made my mainstream auto manufacturers, like Toyota and Hyundai and Chevrolet and near luxury automakers like Lincoln and Volvo and Buick and Acura.
I.e. people don't cross shop the ES and a BMW, or an Audi, or a Mercedes, because they don't offer anything comparable. That consumer is not the same consumer as the one that buys those cars, they're a near luxury consumer who is also looking at Buicks, etc.
I don't have any problem with that vehicle existing in the Lexus lineup, nor do I have an issue with people buying that vehicle...I bought 2 in my life. My ONLY issue comes if Lexus does what I am afraid they will do and discontinues the GS and tries to say this new ES can compete with cars like the 5 Series, E Class A6 etc...because it can't. At its very core it is inferior to those cars, and Lexus pretending it isn't is just a joke.
Right now they don't pretend the ES is anything that it isn't.
Plenty of people don't consider my LS a real luxury car because its made by Toyota. And perhaps to people who buy V12 sedans and Bentleys and Rolls Royces, it isn't. I agree, its not what those cars are, and the ES isn't what the cars we discussing are.
I.e. people don't cross shop the ES and a BMW, or an Audi, or a Mercedes, because they don't offer anything comparable. That consumer is not the same consumer as the one that buys those cars, they're a near luxury consumer who is also looking at Buicks, etc.
I don't have any problem with that vehicle existing in the Lexus lineup, nor do I have an issue with people buying that vehicle...I bought 2 in my life. My ONLY issue comes if Lexus does what I am afraid they will do and discontinues the GS and tries to say this new ES can compete with cars like the 5 Series, E Class A6 etc...because it can't. At its very core it is inferior to those cars, and Lexus pretending it isn't is just a joke.
Right now they don't pretend the ES is anything that it isn't.
Plenty of people don't consider my LS a real luxury car because its made by Toyota. And perhaps to people who buy V12 sedans and Bentleys and Rolls Royces, it isn't. I agree, its not what those cars are, and the ES isn't what the cars we discussing are.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 04-11-18 at 07:03 PM.
04-11-18, 07:03 PM
#84
Lexus Fanatic
Bringing this back squarely to the new ES, it has a tougher road ahead than ES generations before it.
When I chose to buy the ES in 2003, and again in 2010 the reason I bought it was quite frankly, because thats all I could afford. I was used to big cars, and I didn't like the small econobox look, proportions, or room of cars like the C Class or 3 Series, and the ES gave me a true midsized car for what one of those cars would cost, so I swallowed the FWD, and got it. Really, there was no competition, certainly not in 2003, and really not in 2010 either. Fast forward to today, there are a LOT of great options in that $40,000-$60,000 bracket if you are willing to look at FWD near luxury sedans, and one of those options is an excellent proper RWD layout car in the G80. If I were the same consumer I was in 2003 and 2010 today, I almost certainly would not get an ES. If I were okay with the 4cyl and the FWD layout I would get a Volvo S90, especially now that they've stretched the wheelbase. That really is an excellent car, and at least it looks RWD. I would also be very tempted to get a G80 which really feels a class above.
Lexus needs to really hit the new ES out of the park if they want to stay dominant in this segment they really had to themselves for a long time.
Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it but I don't agree with you at all. The ES is a near luxury vehicle in my opinion, not a real luxury car. The IS is a real luxury car.
The 1UR-FSE engine in my LS460 is used in the JDM market Toyota Crown, but it is not used in the Land Cruiser. Thats the IUZ-FE derivative (no direct injection). Its the same basic engine but hey, SOMETHING is different.
JDM Toyota vehicles like the Crown are a different story too. Thats a luxury vehicle in Japan.
When I chose to buy the ES in 2003, and again in 2010 the reason I bought it was quite frankly, because thats all I could afford. I was used to big cars, and I didn't like the small econobox look, proportions, or room of cars like the C Class or 3 Series, and the ES gave me a true midsized car for what one of those cars would cost, so I swallowed the FWD, and got it. Really, there was no competition, certainly not in 2003, and really not in 2010 either. Fast forward to today, there are a LOT of great options in that $40,000-$60,000 bracket if you are willing to look at FWD near luxury sedans, and one of those options is an excellent proper RWD layout car in the G80. If I were the same consumer I was in 2003 and 2010 today, I almost certainly would not get an ES. If I were okay with the 4cyl and the FWD layout I would get a Volvo S90, especially now that they've stretched the wheelbase. That really is an excellent car, and at least it looks RWD. I would also be very tempted to get a G80 which really feels a class above.
Lexus needs to really hit the new ES out of the park if they want to stay dominant in this segment they really had to themselves for a long time.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
Nothing above means the ES is not a real luxury vehicle. And I would not crap on the ES engine, your 1UR 4.6 engine is also used in Toyota Crown as well as base Tundras and more expensive Land Cruisers.
The 1UR-FSE engine in my LS460 is used in the JDM market Toyota Crown, but it is not used in the Land Cruiser. Thats the IUZ-FE derivative (no direct injection). Its the same basic engine but hey, SOMETHING is different.
JDM Toyota vehicles like the Crown are a different story too. Thats a luxury vehicle in Japan.
Last edited by SW17LS; 04-11-18 at 07:08 PM.
04-11-18, 07:09 PM
#85
04-11-18, 07:11 PM
#86
Lexus Fanatic
Hell, even Cadillac gets it. Remember it was what, 15 years ago they were basically selling all transverse FWD V8 Northstar luxury cars?
I just hope Lexus gets it too.
04-11-18, 07:17 PM
#87
Lexus Fanatic
I liken the FWD to RWD debate to quartz and automatic movements in watches. I have a very nice Raymond Weil quartz movement watch I paid about $1,000 for, I like it and it serves my needs, its classy and isn't just an ordinary watch you can buy at Kay jewelers like a Seiko or a Citizen or even a Movado. But, I'm not a "watch person". Watch enthusiasts who are really into watches will NEVER buy a watch that has a quartz movement instead of an automatic movement, the mention of a quartz movement watch is like heresy.
Such as it is amongst real car enthusiasts and FWD cars. FWD is fine for a family car, but doesn't belong in anything over $50,000. FWD is great for my minivan. FWD is fine for an ES that knocks on the door of $50k but lives in the mid 40s, but as a GS replacement that can get up to $70k? No way.
Such as it is amongst real car enthusiasts and FWD cars. FWD is fine for a family car, but doesn't belong in anything over $50,000. FWD is great for my minivan. FWD is fine for an ES that knocks on the door of $50k but lives in the mid 40s, but as a GS replacement that can get up to $70k? No way.
04-11-18, 07:23 PM
#88
Bringing this back squarely to the new ES, it has a tougher road ahead than ES generations before it.
When I chose to buy the ES in 2003, and again in 2010 the reason I bought it was quite frankly, because thats all I could afford. I was used to big cars, and I didn't like the small econobox look, proportions, or room of cars like the C Class or 3 Series, and the ES gave me a true midsized car for what one of those cars would cost, so I swallowed the FWD, and got it. Really, there was no competition, certainly not in 2003, and really not in 2010 either. Fast forward to today, there are a LOT of great options in that $40,000-$60,000 bracket if you are willing to look at FWD near luxury sedans, and one of those options is an excellent proper RWD layout car in the G80. If I were the same consumer I was in 2003 and 2010 today, I almost certainly would not get an ES. If I were okay with the 4cyl and the FWD layout I would get a Volvo S90, especially now that they've stretched the wheelbase. That really is an excellent car, and at least it looks RWD. I would also be very tempted to get a G80 which really feels a class above.
Lexus needs to really hit the new ES out of the park if they want to stay dominant in this segment they really had to themselves for a long time.
Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it but I don't agree with you at all. The ES is a near luxury vehicle in my opinion, not a real luxury car. The IS is a real luxury car.
The 1UR-FSE engine in my LS460 is used in the JDM market Toyota Crown, but it is not used in the Land Cruiser. Thats the IUZ-FE derivative (no direct injection). Its the same basic engine but hey, SOMETHING is different.
JDM Toyota vehicles like the Crown are a different story too. Thats a luxury vehicle in Japan.
When I chose to buy the ES in 2003, and again in 2010 the reason I bought it was quite frankly, because thats all I could afford. I was used to big cars, and I didn't like the small econobox look, proportions, or room of cars like the C Class or 3 Series, and the ES gave me a true midsized car for what one of those cars would cost, so I swallowed the FWD, and got it. Really, there was no competition, certainly not in 2003, and really not in 2010 either. Fast forward to today, there are a LOT of great options in that $40,000-$60,000 bracket if you are willing to look at FWD near luxury sedans, and one of those options is an excellent proper RWD layout car in the G80. If I were the same consumer I was in 2003 and 2010 today, I almost certainly would not get an ES. If I were okay with the 4cyl and the FWD layout I would get a Volvo S90, especially now that they've stretched the wheelbase. That really is an excellent car, and at least it looks RWD. I would also be very tempted to get a G80 which really feels a class above.
Lexus needs to really hit the new ES out of the park if they want to stay dominant in this segment they really had to themselves for a long time.
Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it but I don't agree with you at all. The ES is a near luxury vehicle in my opinion, not a real luxury car. The IS is a real luxury car.
The 1UR-FSE engine in my LS460 is used in the JDM market Toyota Crown, but it is not used in the Land Cruiser. Thats the IUZ-FE derivative (no direct injection). Its the same basic engine but hey, SOMETHING is different.
JDM Toyota vehicles like the Crown are a different story too. Thats a luxury vehicle in Japan.
04-11-18, 07:29 PM
#89
Lexus Fanatic
Correct, IMHO the 03 I had was the "best" ES that they made. That car really felt like a much more expensive car than it actually was. It was ugly, but very well made, excellent materials inside, great wood trim, rode and drove beautifully. It was that car and driving it after I got it that made my Dad want to replace his 98 LS400 with the 04 LS430, because the 400 felt dated without the nav and with much less wood trim inside, etc. My 2010 ES was much better looking, but nowhere near as great a car, and the 13 model when it came out, I was just done with the ES.
04-11-18, 07:29 PM
#90
Lexus Fanatic
Note, however, that the 2018 Audi A6, which, in base versions and destination/freight, starts just over 50K without options, and comes standard with FWD. Quattro AWD is officially an option. It does, of course, come standard in higher-line A6s.
Last edited by mmarshall; 04-11-18 at 07:48 PM.