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it it really doesn’t, but if it makes some Lexus owners sleep better thinking the Avalon is based upon the ES instead of the reverse I’m okay with that. At the end of the day the TMC engineers who develop the platform for both cars all work for the same corporation and the final profits all fall into the same exact pot.
I think you already know how I feel about the ES, it makes financial since to keep the ES around, but it also hurts the GS sales. I really like my 4GS want to buy the 5GS when it debuts. GM does the same exact thing with XTS and Impala.
Its a reskinned Camry, I don’t have a problem with the ES being around as long as it doesn’t impede on the next gen Lexus GS.
Let the cash cow selling grandpa car make money that goes towards developing the best GS ever, A athletic Japanese Samurai.
I’m just a little confused to how big they are going to allow the ES to grow, I know it’s not competitive with the LS, but the interior passenger volume seem like it will more than likely surpass the 2018 LS500 on paper.
My question to you is do you think Lexus will ask the chief engineer and his team to develop a even longer LS500L to further separate the ES, GS and LS?
True. The only reason Lexus loves the ES is because its a cash cow. Toyota/Lexus makes what sells. I'm just very curious whats going to happen with the Lexus GS once the Lexus ES gets released. I'm still betting the Lexus GS is going to stay. I think the Lexus ES teaser that dropped was more proof of that, in my opinion. (Teased with a Lexus ES w/ its new grille and blue "L" logo)
I feel that if Lexus built a faster/sportier Lexus ES (something that can be seen as a Lexus GS replacement), that Lexus ES would have been on the teaser to drive up the hype 10 fold - instead of using a hybrid ES teaser.
That's a very good question. I'm not 100% sure but there is a good chance they might since Lexus does have the RX-L now. I guess it really depends on how they'll size the GS.
Originally Posted by spwolf
i also always argue that since ES sells 3x better than Avalon, it is actually designed for ES and also used by Avalon.
That's a reasonable assessment. But - it was always designed for the Avalon/Camry because they were the first to get it. The Lexus ES always follows the updated Avalon/Camry.
The Avalon doesn't sell well because its such a niche car and people will have a hard time paying over 40K for a loaded Toyota while a base mode Lexus ES starts under 40K.
If Lexus owners were concerned about their Lexus being based on a Toyota, they wouldn't buy the ES. This is a non issue for this segment.
I'm not worried about it from a snobbery standpoint, I just am in a place where I'm not buying any more transverse/FWD cars, so no ES for me. I'd rather have a properly premium RWD Genesis G80, etc. For the clientele the ES is aimed at neither the FWD or the Toyota derivation is an issue. For those of us for whom it is an issue there are better Lexus vehicles to buy...assuming they keep the GS.
If this FWD ES replaces the GS it will seriously diminish Lexus IMHO. If they moved the ES to the GA-L platform and positioned it as in between the current ES and GS and called it the ES and ditched the GS, I would have no problem.
A true premium luxury car should be a longitudinal RWD layout, that is the standard.
For the clientele the ES is aimed at neither the FWD or the Toyota derivation is an issue. For those of us for whom it is an issue there are better Lexus vehicles to buy...assuming they keep the GS.
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Better is subjective to each individual buyer. RWD is not the end all for premium segments. The GS vs ES debate is getting lame, Almost anyone can see that the ES350 is a far better packaged vehicle than the GS. That being said, the GS perhaps maybe the better driving car, but most people want more than just the better driving car.
If Lexus owners were concerned about their Lexus being based on a Toyota, they wouldn't buy the ES. This is a non issue for this segment.
I'm not worried about it from a snobbery standpoint, I just am in a place where I'm not buying any more transverse/FWD cars, so no ES for me. I'd rather have a properly premium RWD Genesis G80, etc. For the clientele the ES is aimed at neither the FWD or the Toyota derivation is an issue. For those of us for whom it is an issue there are better Lexus vehicles to buy...assuming they keep the GS.
If this FWD ES replaces the GS it will seriously diminish Lexus IMHO. If they moved the ES to the GA-L platform and positioned it as in between the current ES and GS and called it the ES and ditched the GS, I would have no problem.
A true premium luxury car should be a longitudinal RWD layout, that is the standard.
True. I agree. If Lexus owners are concerned about their ES based on a Toyota, they wouldn't but it. There are other Lexus models to be had. The Lexus ES is targeting a different group of people completely.
While I don't think Lexus will diminish if FWD ES replaces the GS, I think it'll hurt them big though. I think many people and I share this worry that they might ditch the Lexus GS and use the Lexus ES as their main "premium mid-size luxury car." Because if they do, buyers will be stuck between buying a Lexus IS or Lexus LS if they want a sedan. There needs to be a mid-size sedan that is bigger than the IS and close to the LS to bridge the gap. I highly doubt the Lexus ES bridges will this gap because I think Toyota/Lexus wants the Lexus ES to start under 40K to price match it along the Avalon.
Agreed. If they moved the ES to the GA-L platform and offer something that makes seem worthy of a GS replacement (AWD included), then I wouldn't have a problem with it either. However - I don't think they are gonna do that.
Agreed. A "premium luxury car" (executive sedan) has to be longitudinal RWD. The Lexus ES can be a luxury car but it will not replace the GS as a premium product with a FWD set up.
Agreed. A "premium luxury car" (executive sedan) has to be longitudinal RWD. The Lexus ES can be a luxury car but it will not replace the GS as a premium product with a FWD set up.
I believe this is wrong. A high end premium brand should "offer" RWD models. All premium cars do not have to be RWD, but the brand should offer RWD.
Better is subjective to each individual buyer. RWD is not the end all for premium segments. The GS vs ES debate is getting lame, Almost anyone can see that the ES350 is a far better packaged vehicle than the GS. That being said, the GS perhaps maybe the better driving car, but most people want more than just the better driving car.
The fact is that when it comes to luxury vehicles and performance vehicles, the gold standard is RWD. Theres a reason why Rolls Royces are RWD based, Bentleys, the list goes on and on. You don't find ultra high end cars that are FWD. In order for somebody to really be taken seriously in the luxury marketplace, they need to have a dedicated RWD platform their vehicles are coming from.
Now with Lexus, I don't see the issue with the ES being FWD as they are straddling segments, competing with cars like the Buick LaCrosse, Lincoln MKX, Volvo S90 etc which aren't really fully ensconced in the luxury segment, more "near luxury". For buyers who want a "proper" RWD based luxury sedan the GS is there. My issue is if they replace the GS with the FWD ES that to me shows they're stepping a rung down on the ladder closer to where those Lincolns, Buicks, Volvos and Acuras are.
So to summarize my position, the ES being FWD is fine as long as the IS and GS exist. If they do away with the GS and expect a FWD ES to fill that midsize segment need and compete with the E Class, 5 Series and A6 they're in trouble. If they do so, they are basically ceding they can't compete for those buyers.
Serious luxury & performance buyers are not going to buy a FWD car.
Originally Posted by BippuLexus
While I don't think Lexus will diminish if FWD ES replaces the GS, I think it'll hurt them big though.
Whats the difference between them being diminished and "hurting them big"?
Not to bring it back to RWD vs FWD, having driven my RWD LS460L with modern traction control and skid control in the snow on all season tires, I now see no benefit to FWD whatsoever other than cost of production, which isn't and shouldn't be a consideration when designing cars of this caliber.
True. The only reason Lexus loves the ES is because its a cash cow. Toyota/Lexus makes what sells. I'm just very curious whats going to happen with the Lexus GS once the Lexus ES gets released. I'm still betting the Lexus GS is going to stay. I think the Lexus ES teaser that dropped was more proof of that, in my opinion. (Teased with a Lexus ES w/ its new grille and blue "L" logo)
I feel that if Lexus built a faster/sportier Lexus ES (something that can be seen as a Lexus GS replacement), that Lexus ES would have been on the teaser to drive up the hype 10 fold - instead of using a hybrid ES teaser.
That's a very good question. I'm not 100% sure but there is a good chance they might since Lexus does have the RX-L now. I guess it really depends on how they'll size the GS.
That's a reasonable assessment. But - it was always designed for the Avalon/Camry because they were the first to get it. The Lexus ES always follows the updated Avalon/Camry.
The Avalon doesn't sell well because its such a niche car and people will have a hard time paying over 40K for a loaded Toyota while a base mode Lexus ES starts under 40K.
$5,450 is all that separates a base Avalon from a base ES350. And with that increase in price you get the honor of saying you own a Lexus and not a Toyota. You also get a basic comprehensive warranty that last one additional year. A slightly longer powertrain warranty. You also get a clean & refueled LEXUS loaner, dealers serve Starbucks instead of Keurig coffee. You walk on finely polished Italian marble tile floors vs ceramic tile. And most importantly you have glistening chandeliers bedazzling the cathedrals high ceilings vs the plebeian 2x4 fiber-glass drop tiles that adorn the ceiling of your average Toyota dealer. Sometimes Lexus dealers throw in a small putting green for the added novelty.
It will be interesting to see how the ES is further differentiated from ‘19 Avalon now that Avalon offers a standard Bi-LED headlights, 9” infotainment display, 1200watt JBL sound system, real Yamaha wood veneer, standard cow hide and availabile adaptive variable suspension with option to add 19” rims.
Almost anyone can see that the ES350 is a far better packaged vehicle than the GS. That being said, the GS perhaps maybe the better driving car, but most people want more than just the better driving car.
It depends on what you want. If you just want interior space, sure the ES is better packaged. If you care about literally anything else the GS is better. It rides better, its quieter, its more refined, its more solid and built better, the interior materials used are worlds better, and its a proper RWD layout.
The only benefit the ES has over the GS outside of price is a larger backseat.
04-11-18, 01:27 PM
