Toyota Dropping Diesel Cars in Europe at the End of 2018
03-11-18, 01:03 PM
#31
Pole Position
Tight race to 60, fuel efficiency about the same in city 7,5-8l/100km or 36 UK MPG (30MPG) both with 18" rims or larger and automatic
03-11-18, 05:11 PM
#32
Hopefully this discussion gets deeper.
The Lexus RXh has both dual variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust. So does the regular RX 3.5. When you pay more for an RXh, you get more horses, more torque which gives you better vehicle performance. You also get much better fuel economy. Same thing with a GSh vs a GS350.
Now look at the ESh and I guess Avalon. You pay more money, and you get less power, less vehicle performance, less horses and less torque. The ESh is 5.8 litres per 100k in Canada, while the beaver RXh is 7.5 litres per 100k, I am sure you could get 6.5 litres per 100k if you put the 306net RXh system in the ES. Even if you got 7.5 litres per 100k you are getting Corolla fuel economy but 306 net horsepower. Now that is a premium worth paying for. You also get dual VVTi and the Atkinson cycle. (Tacoma comes with Atkinson on the 3.5, not sure why RX350 doesn’t)
Paying the premium for the LS or LC makes no sense. Neither does the ESh. Same with CT, I didn’t realize it at the time.
The Lexus RXh has both dual variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust. So does the regular RX 3.5. When you pay more for an RXh, you get more horses, more torque which gives you better vehicle performance. You also get much better fuel economy. Same thing with a GSh vs a GS350.
Now look at the ESh and I guess Avalon. You pay more money, and you get less power, less vehicle performance, less horses and less torque. The ESh is 5.8 litres per 100k in Canada, while the beaver RXh is 7.5 litres per 100k, I am sure you could get 6.5 litres per 100k if you put the 306net RXh system in the ES. Even if you got 7.5 litres per 100k you are getting Corolla fuel economy but 306 net horsepower. Now that is a premium worth paying for. You also get dual VVTi and the Atkinson cycle. (Tacoma comes with Atkinson on the 3.5, not sure why RX350 doesn’t)
Paying the premium for the LS or LC makes no sense. Neither does the ESh. Same with CT, I didn’t realize it at the time.
03-11-18, 05:54 PM
#33
Lexus Champion
There is a factor that limits electric motor performance on normal (not plug-in) hybrids and that is battery capacity. If you want a high-power electric drive motor, you need the battery capacity to back it up. The problem with the electric drive in a normal hybrid is not the small, weak motor, the problem is that you quickly run out of electricity from the battery if you do not limit the output of the motor.
To have a powerful electric drive, you have to have enough electricity to back it up. To guarantee that you always have enough electricity in the battery, you need to have a battery to provide the electrical capacity and then you need to drive the gasoline engine more to maintain the charge in the battery. Soon, you find that the engine is on a lot of the time (shutting down much less often) charging the battery -- fuel consumption climbs, and the low fuel consumption advantage of a hybrid drops.
Or if you want a performance hybrid, you could just use a small, weak motor and back it up with a more powerful gasoline engine. This is the route that the Germans (Mercedes-Benz and Audi) are going with the 48-volt starter-alternator mild hybrids -- replace the starter and alternator with one single electric motor-generator that can act as both starter and alternator / generator, and can provide minimal electrical boost. But again, you lose the low fuel consumption advantage of a full hybrid.
Plug-in hybrids need the more powerful electric motor to drive the car with no gasoline engine backup, but they have enough electricity in the battery (at higher levels of charge) to provide the amount of electricity needed. But once the plug-in charge is used up, the car is forced to run as a normal hybrid would, with the limitations on electricity drawn from the battery.
03-11-18, 06:33 PM
#34
Hybrid vehicles tuned for fuel efficiency sell but hybrids tuned for power and performance do not. The first Honda Accord Hybrid with the V6-electric powertrain did not sell well; and we all know that the GSh does not sell.
There is a factor that limits electric motor performance on normal (not plug-in) hybrids and that is battery capacity. If you want a high-power electric drive motor, you need the battery capacity to back it up. The problem with the electric drive in a normal hybrid is not the small, weak motor, the problem is that you quickly run out of electricity from the battery if you do not limit the output of the motor.
To have a powerful electric drive, you have to have enough electricity to back it up. To guarantee that you always have enough electricity in the battery, you need to have a battery to provide the electrical capacity and then you need to drive the gasoline engine more to maintain the charge in the battery. Soon, you find that the engine is on a lot of the time (shutting down much less often) charging the battery -- fuel consumption climbs, and the low fuel consumption advantage of a hybrid drops.
Or if you want a performance hybrid, you could just use a small, weak motor and back it up with a more powerful gasoline engine. This is the route that the Germans (Mercedes-Benz and Audi) are going with the 48-volt starter-alternator mild hybrids -- replace the starter and alternator with one single electric motor-generator that can act as both starter and alternator / generator, and can provide minimal electrical boost. But again, you lose the low fuel consumption advantage of a full hybrid.
Plug-in hybrids need the more powerful electric motor to drive the car with no gasoline engine backup, but they have enough electricity in the battery (at higher levels of charge) to provide the amount of electricity needed. But once the plug-in charge is used up, the car is forced to run as a normal hybrid would, with the limitations on electricity drawn from the battery.
There is a factor that limits electric motor performance on normal (not plug-in) hybrids and that is battery capacity. If you want a high-power electric drive motor, you need the battery capacity to back it up. The problem with the electric drive in a normal hybrid is not the small, weak motor, the problem is that you quickly run out of electricity from the battery if you do not limit the output of the motor.
To have a powerful electric drive, you have to have enough electricity to back it up. To guarantee that you always have enough electricity in the battery, you need to have a battery to provide the electrical capacity and then you need to drive the gasoline engine more to maintain the charge in the battery. Soon, you find that the engine is on a lot of the time (shutting down much less often) charging the battery -- fuel consumption climbs, and the low fuel consumption advantage of a hybrid drops.
Or if you want a performance hybrid, you could just use a small, weak motor and back it up with a more powerful gasoline engine. This is the route that the Germans (Mercedes-Benz and Audi) are going with the 48-volt starter-alternator mild hybrids -- replace the starter and alternator with one single electric motor-generator that can act as both starter and alternator / generator, and can provide minimal electrical boost. But again, you lose the low fuel consumption advantage of a full hybrid.
Plug-in hybrids need the more powerful electric motor to drive the car with no gasoline engine backup, but they have enough electricity in the battery (at higher levels of charge) to provide the amount of electricity needed. But once the plug-in charge is used up, the car is forced to run as a normal hybrid would, with the limitations on electricity drawn from the battery.
. In a few years time I would love to see what advantages these Solid State batteries offer for Lexus (and Toyota) hybrids. One Lexus exec was quoted saying all Lexus's would be electrified (hybrid or otherwise) by 2025.
03-11-18, 07:07 PM
#35
Lexus Champion
The real point is that who drives hybrids and who drives diesels. They are two different technologies aimed at drivers who have different driving ideals. You drive a hybrid and drive it conservatively in the city to get the big mileage number. You drive the diesel for its nice torque and its highway performance. Diesel is out of favor due to the scandals. Hybrid is in, because Toyota led by example and mainstreamed it. You don't drive hybrid for racing around stoplight to stoplight, you drive it for the mileage and emissions.
03-12-18, 06:50 AM
#36
Pole Position
Hopefully this discussion gets deeper.
The Lexus RXh has both dual variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust. So does the regular RX 3.5. When you pay more for an RXh, you get more horses, more torque which gives you better vehicle performance. You also get much better fuel economy. Same thing with a GSh vs a GS350.
Now look at the ESh and I guess Avalon. You pay more money, and you get less power, less vehicle performance, less horses and less torque. The ESh is 5.8 litres per 100k in Canada, while the beaver RXh is 7.5 litres per 100k, I am sure you could get 6.5 litres per 100k if you put the 306net RXh system in the ES. Even if you got 7.5 litres per 100k you are getting Corolla fuel economy but 306 net horsepower. Now that is a premium worth paying for. You also get dual VVTi and the Atkinson cycle. (Tacoma comes with Atkinson on the 3.5, not sure why RX350 doesn’t)
Paying the premium for the LS or LC makes no sense. Neither does the ESh. Same with CT, I didn’t realize it at the time.
And good for Toyota. They finally have a lower cost hybrid system that's not a total turd. I dont know what the premium is for the 2.0HSD vs the Prius unit, but I would assume most people will spring for the 2.0HSD if the premium isnt yuuuuuge.
03-12-18, 04:08 PM
#37
Lexus Fanatic
Hybrids are in because the mass-media and celebrities have convinced people that electric motors are the key to solving all of the planet's emission problems. Nowhere has that media-publicity been more effective, of course, than with the various models of the Toyota Prius....although, lately, some Prius sales have been lost to small hybrid CUVs.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-12-18 at 04:11 PM.
03-12-18, 04:14 PM
#38
Lexus Champion
Hybrids are in because the mass-media and celebrities have convinced people that electric motors are the key to solving all of the planet's emission problems. Nowhere has that media-publicity been more effective, of course, than with the various models of the Toyota Prius....although, lately, some Prius sales have been lost to small hybrid CUVs.
03-12-18, 04:23 PM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
That, of course, will vary from driver to driver. But it was intense media and celebrity pressure that got a lot of people into the in the first place.
I don't hate them all myself. Some of the Lexus hybrids are virtually seamless in their operation....others, like the 1Gen Honda Insight and the early Civic Hybrids, drove like a POS.
I don't hate them all myself. Some of the Lexus hybrids are virtually seamless in their operation....others, like the 1Gen Honda Insight and the early Civic Hybrids, drove like a POS.
03-12-18, 06:26 PM
#40
Lexus Champion
03-13-18, 10:28 AM
#41
I've only had my 2010 RX450h hybrid for about 18 months, but I love the hybrid nature of the car. Until getting the car I associated the hybrid concept with touchy-feely tree-hugger types. When I quickly needed a replacement car after my previous car was clearly headed for the afterlife, I went to the Lexus dealer (always liked the Lexus looks and reliability reputation) and was talked into a quick test-drive of an RX350. Very much impressed. Then, on the way back to the saleslady's office, saw a 2010 450h parked in the lot. "It just came in," she said. Well, I'd been impressed by the technology of a friend's Prius, so why not another quick test drive? Car was immaculate and I fell in love with the turbine-like power delivery. Hybrid powertrains are more complicated and more expensive to buy, but they eventually eat back that cost differential, and as for complexity, well, hey, it's a Lexus, it will last a very long time. And these days a used Lexus hybrid wasn't that much more than a conventional one. So I got it.
Very smooth power, great cruiser, and mileage like a diesel but without the fuel hassles. The shiftless CVT-like "transmission" (actually just a bulletproof planetary gearset!) is brilliant. It could very well be that if diesels are banished for largely political reasons in Europe then they will be traded in for hybrids.
So my favorable attitude towards hybrids has nothing to do with tree-hugging. Anyway, those folks have probably moved on to a Leaf or Tesla. Now THAT technology currently has major limitations, in my humble opinion, but to each his own.
Very smooth power, great cruiser, and mileage like a diesel but without the fuel hassles. The shiftless CVT-like "transmission" (actually just a bulletproof planetary gearset!) is brilliant. It could very well be that if diesels are banished for largely political reasons in Europe then they will be traded in for hybrids.
So my favorable attitude towards hybrids has nothing to do with tree-hugging. Anyway, those folks have probably moved on to a Leaf or Tesla. Now THAT technology currently has major limitations, in my humble opinion, but to each his own.
03-17-18, 04:25 PM
#42
Lexus Fanatic
Oh, hybrids are definitely the answer for some people...otherwise, even with the publicity they get, they wouldn't be so popular. And many (not all) of those who drive large, heavy SUVs, particularly those with truck-derived body-on-frame designs, do so for heavy towing, where that type of design generally works best.
03-17-18, 06:37 PM
#43
Lexus Champion
Hybrid internal combustion engine-electric vehicles are an interim, stop-gap measure to reduce petroleum-based fuel consumption and reduce emissions, until such time that the battery-electric vehicle (BEV) and the supporting infrastructure is viable.
Despite the high-profile work on such BEVs such as Teslas and Nissan Leafs and Chevy Bolts, they are still not competitive with ICE-powered vehicles for range at full charge, time to re-fuel and the re-fueling infrastructure. Only when the majority of BEVs can run 300+ miles on a full "tank" and can re-fuel to full tank at every street corner (or every home) in 5 to 10 minutes, will BEVs be comparable with ICE vehicles -- and hybrid electric vehicles are no longer needed.
Despite the high-profile work on such BEVs such as Teslas and Nissan Leafs and Chevy Bolts, they are still not competitive with ICE-powered vehicles for range at full charge, time to re-fuel and the re-fueling infrastructure. Only when the majority of BEVs can run 300+ miles on a full "tank" and can re-fuel to full tank at every street corner (or every home) in 5 to 10 minutes, will BEVs be comparable with ICE vehicles -- and hybrid electric vehicles are no longer needed.
03-17-18, 06:58 PM
#44
Pole Position
Hybrid internal combustion engine-electric vehicles are an interim, stop-gap measure to reduce petroleum-based fuel consumption and reduce emissions, until such time that the battery-electric vehicle (BEV) and the supporting infrastructure is viable.
Despite the high-profile work on such BEVs such as Teslas and Nissan Leafs and Chevy Bolts, they are still not competitive with ICE-powered vehicles for range at full charge, time to re-fuel and the re-fueling infrastructure. Only when the majority of BEVs can run 300+ miles on a full "tank" and can re-fuel to full tank at every street corner (or every home) in 5 to 10 minutes, will BEVs be comparable with ICE vehicles -- and hybrid electric vehicles are no longer needed.
Despite the high-profile work on such BEVs such as Teslas and Nissan Leafs and Chevy Bolts, they are still not competitive with ICE-powered vehicles for range at full charge, time to re-fuel and the re-fueling infrastructure. Only when the majority of BEVs can run 300+ miles on a full "tank" and can re-fuel to full tank at every street corner (or every home) in 5 to 10 minutes, will BEVs be comparable with ICE vehicles -- and hybrid electric vehicles are no longer needed.
03-18-18, 07:45 AM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
Hybrid internal combustion engine-electric vehicles are an interim, stop-gap measure to reduce petroleum-based fuel consumption and reduce emissions, until such time that the battery-electric vehicle (BEV) and the supporting infrastructure is viable.
Despite the high-profile work on such BEVs such as Teslas and Nissan Leafs and Chevy Bolts, they are still not competitive with ICE-powered vehicles for range at full charge, time to re-fuel and the re-fueling infrastructure. Only when the majority of BEVs can run 300+ miles on a full "tank" and can re-fuel to full tank at every street corner (or every home) in 5 to 10 minutes, will BEVs be comparable with ICE vehicles -- and hybrid electric vehicles are no longer needed.
Despite the high-profile work on such BEVs such as Teslas and Nissan Leafs and Chevy Bolts, they are still not competitive with ICE-powered vehicles for range at full charge, time to re-fuel and the re-fueling infrastructure. Only when the majority of BEVs can run 300+ miles on a full "tank" and can re-fuel to full tank at every street corner (or every home) in 5 to 10 minutes, will BEVs be comparable with ICE vehicles -- and hybrid electric vehicles are no longer needed.