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The hard core 4WD with a low/high range and lockers front and back is basically too much for even suburban driving situations in deep snow/uncleared side streets. But I can guarantee that even the very capable Crown Vic with winters, will run out of ground clearance or will run into enough deep snow that its rear wheels will not let it power out of trouble.
The modern AWD systems are the best but here you have to be careful if you're in a vehicle with the "slip n grip" systems, or you have true AWD which is engaged all the time. Audi used to have this and Subarus have this. Having the side to side or "symmetrical AWD is absolutely the best.
I figure it's better to have some sort of system that can power all four wheels and not need it vs not having such a system and absolutely wishing you had while you wait for the tow truck to come get you unstuck. Where I live you would currently be in deep slushy snow that is just about a foot of uncleared snow sitting on the side streets after a severe cold snap. FWD with winters will get you through but even there, it's a little dicey in spots. AWD goes through that easily.
I heard Nissan X-trail is coming back to market. As you mentioned understanding how system works and some practicing is the key.
yes of course an actual suv or even crossover that can send power to every wheel will be better but unless you have a seriously gnarly driveway or spend the 2nd half of your commute driving on unpaved rural roads. if you can only have ONE car then i'd say a rav4 or subaru would be a great choice, i'm talking about people who just use their car to drive the maybe 2-5 miles each way to the train station or don't live very far away from their job. obviously i could drive the vic into a field and get it stuck pretty easily but that's not the type of conditions i'm talking about here
The problem here is that your customers may be misinformed about what conditions they are traveling in, and what tires they need for these conditions. FWD with snows is going to be fine and I'm sure you recommend that as the starter choice. If they don't want that then you probably move over to RAV as you say.
I get what you're saying, but the internet is full of videos, and online there are all sorts anecdotal stories about RWD cars just blasting through the stuff with no context to them. I just see your video comparing an Explorer and a Vic doing loops on basically cleared surfaces that pose no real challenge. Just everyday driving in the spring or late fall for me.
Respectfully, if you want to know what deep winter in a winter zone city is about just bring that Vic up to Canada and I'll promptly get it stuck on a side street for you no problem
Though in today's lingo its seemingly one of those interchangeable and broad terms. Like saying Kleenex when you mean tissue. Saying the Explorer is an SUV when its truly a CUV. AWD/4WD tends to get the same treatment, even though there is usually locking diffs and transfer cases on 4WD vs AWD. I appreciate when people say it correct, but when I hear people say the other version, I can usually decipher what they mean.
Disagree. A car like RAV4 has AWD when it decides it needs it. A true 4WD has to be engaged on it own. Full is always on, that is the best IMO It should always be defined correctly.
Originally Posted by Stroock639
i thought i made enough of a point to not say the rav is AWD not 4WD but oh well. let me tell you though, when you push the button to lock it into permanent 50/50 power split mode the rav can do snow very well. regardless it's good in the snow and maybe it's in my head but that button definitely seems to make a difference.
as far as i understand, pushing that creates the equivalent of a locked center differential
Not really
Originally Posted by MattyG
The hard core 4WD with a low/high range and lockers front and back is basically too much for even suburban driving situations in deep snow/uncleared side streets. But I can guarantee that even the very capable Crown Vic with winters, will run out of ground clearance or will run into enough deep snow that its rear wheels will not let it power out of trouble.
The modern AWD systems are the best but here you have to be careful if you're in a vehicle with the "slip n grip" systems, or you have true AWD which is engaged all the time. Audi used to have this and Subarus have this. Having the side to side or "symmetrical AWD is absolutely the best.
I figure it's better to have some sort of system that can power all four wheels and not need it vs not having such a system and absolutely wishing you had while you wait for the tow truck to come get you unstuck. Where I live you would currently be in deep slushy snow that is just about a foot of uncleared snow sitting on the side streets after a severe cold snap. FWD with winters will get you through but even there, it's a little dicey in spots. AWD goes through that easily.
Not true. Toyota full time 4WD in their SUVs is one the best. Lexus cars with AWD also one of the best. They come with Torsen centre diff which I don't think any other manufacturer offers.
Not true. Toyota full time 4WD in their SUVs is one the best. Lexus cars with AWD also one of the best. They come with Torsen centre diff which I don't think any other manufacturer offers.
Re-read my post. I said that, except I didn't mention Toyota/Lexus (obviously you're a fan, but there are other makes in this world). AWD/4WD systems that stay engaged are ideal, but some of them are overkill for what the OP stated. You're arguing about systems that are designed for off road conditions in other parts of the world not suburbia, hence the popularity of Subarus and Audis. The bulk of the big SUVs with beefy center diffs and lockers are just overkill vanity for rich suburbanites who quake at the lightest flake of snow on the way to the fancy pet store etc.
Many in the auto world think (and I agree) that, of the car-based AWD systems, the Subaru Symmetrical systems are the best. They are balanced left-to-right (hence the term Symmetrical), are less-complex mechanically than other systems, tend to be more reliable, and provide effective traction on practically any kind of paved surface (and some mild off-roading). Unfortunately, the boxer-design Subaru engines (which help make the Symmetrical AWD design possible) aren't necessarily as reliable as the rest of the drivetrain...they have sometimes had problems with head-gaskets and oil-consumption.
Not true. Toyota full time 4WD in their SUVs is one the best. Lexus cars with AWD also one of the best. They come with Torsen centre diff which I don't think any other manufacturer offers
Re-read my post. I said that, except I didn't mention Toyota/Lexus (obviously you're a fan, but there are other makes in this world). AWD/4WD systems that stay engaged are ideal, but some of them are overkill for what the OP stated. You're arguing about systems that are designed for off road conditions in other parts of the world not suburbia, hence the popularity of Subarus and Audis. The bulk of the big SUVs with beefy center diffs and lockers are just overkill vanity for rich suburbanites who quake at the lightest flake of snow on the way to the fancy pet store etc.
Pardon me, Toyota full time 4WD is one of the best. I don’t think there is any AWD unit out there that is superior. A RAV4 the auto engage can fail. A GX, 4Runner, LX or LC are mechanically always working, always on, never without power going to both front and rear diffs. Add in a Torsen diff, and you have a system that is always hunting to send more but not all traction to the rear. All driving conditions benefit from from a full time system, dry, wet, or snow. I think Audi used to use a Torsen diff but I think they have abandoned it. Lexus cars are always with traction and they use a Torsen difff. People pay a premium for full time 4WD. Toyota SUV’s minus the Sequioa and some 4Runners have it.Subaru is good too. I think G wagon and Escalade still use full time set ups.It has nothing to do with having beefy diffs or over kill this or that. It has to do with it always being engaged.
Pardon me, Toyota full time 4WD is one of the best. I don’t think there is any AWD unit out there that is superior.
Check my post #20, just above.
I think Audi used to use a Torsen diff but I think they have abandoned it.
Audi's Quattro system used to be full-time like Subaru's......though with less symmetry and somewhat more complexity. Recently, though, due to fuel-economy pressures (full-time AWD tends to use more fuel) they have gone essentially to a system more that of other manufacturers....power going to the front wheels, then torque-on-demand to the rear, through the center differential, only when the front tires start to slip.
Many in the auto world think (and I agree) that, of the car-based AWD systems, the Subaru Symmetrical systems are the best. They are balanced left-to-right (hence the term Symmetrical), are less-complex mechanically than other systems, tend to be more reliable, and provide effective traction on practically any kind of paved surface (and some mild off-roading). Unfortunately, the boxer-design Subaru engines (which help make the Symmetrical AWD design possible) aren't necessarily as reliable as the rest of the drivetrain...they have sometimes had problems with head-gaskets and oil-consumption.
No doubt about it. A Subaru AWD set is an excellent system.
Pardon me, Toyota full time 4WD is one of the best. I don’t think there is any AWD unit out there that is superior. A RAV4 the auto engage can fail. A GX, 4Runner, LX or LC are mechanically always working, always on, never without power going to both front and rear diffs. Add in a Torsen diff, and you have a system that is always hunting to send more but not all traction to the rear. All driving conditions benefit from from a full time system, dry, wet, or snow. I think Audi used to use a Torsen diff but I think they have abandoned it. Lexus cars are always with traction and they use a Torsen difff. People pay a premium for full time 4WD. Toyota SUV’s minus the Sequioa and some 4Runners have it.Subaru is good too. I think G wagon and Escalade still use full time set ups.It has nothing to do with having beefy diffs or over kill this or that. It has to do with it always being engaged.
What does this have to do with what the OP posed as a question? And how many times do I have to repeat that is what I said about always on vs slip/grip systems? You're arguing about Toyota/Lexus systems that are overkill for suburban driving as I stated. You think that FWD ES and the RX with AWD are best sellers for Toyo/Lex for nothing? They sure don't sell a lot of the others you are mentioning. I think people get it. You drive a Matrix AWD, and you and your parents drive 4Runners. Individual choices but others make different choices and the OP's customers obviously don't need 4WD, as he states.
Disagree. A car like RAV4 has AWD when it decides it needs it. A true 4WD has to be engaged on it own. Full is always on, that is the best IMO It should always be defined correctly.
Disagree all you want, It's a common misconception that they're the same from the lamen. I hear it all the time from folks that don't know much about cars, unlike you, me, and most of the forum which understands the differences.
What does this have to do with what the OP posed as a question? And how many times do I have to repeat that is what I said about always on vs slip/grip systems? You're arguing about Toyota/Lexus systems that are overkill for suburban driving as I stated. You think that FWD ES and the RX with AWD are best sellers for Toyo/Lex for nothing? They sure don't sell a lot of the others you are mentioning. I think people get it. You drive a Matrix AWD, and you and your parents drive 4Runners. Individual choices but others make different choices and the OP's customers obviously don't need 4WD, as he states.
Wow. Your post is a bit personal is it not? We don’t have an AWD Matrix. OP mentioned four wheel drive in thread titles and then went on about AWD. All of that needs to be cleared up. Full time all wheel drive is not overkill, it’s a premium one has to pay vs the on demand cross overs systems they use. Lever operated 4WD are even more superior as there is no electronic switch to fail. Only some 4Runners and Jeep Wranger offer it. I can’t think of any other manufacturer who still over that set up. Anyways. Good night to you!
Disagree all you want, It's a common misconception that they're the same from the lamen. I hear it all the time from folks that don't know much about cars, unlike you, me, and most of the forum which understands the differences.
Which is why I said people who use the term 4WD and AWD need to be corrected. I actually think the RAV4 is not in fact AWD but it’s On Demand 4WD. So perhaps my AWD comment was actually wrong.
All in all, driver's skill is a big factor too whatever he drives. In Ford T days there was no such thing as AWD, 4WD. But they could cope in the winter. I bet they didn't even have winter tires...Personally I know
what I drive and understand the limit of the vehicle. Staying withing the limit, I have more chance of staying out of the trouble.
All in all, driver's skill is a big factor too whatever he drives. In Ford T days there was no such thing as AWD, 4WD. But they could cope in the winter.
One thing, though, that helped the old "T" Tin Lizzie was the fact that its tires were so high and thin. In general, for several reasons due to the laws of physics, all else equal, tall, thin tires will give better traction in snow than shorter, fatter ones. It is one reason (out of several) why cars like the Corvette and Dodge Viper, with their massively-wide tires, are almost helpless in snow.
All in all, driver's skill is a big factor too whatever he drives. In Ford T days there was no such thing as AWD, 4WD. But they could cope in the winter. I bet they didn't even have winter tires...Personally I know
what I drive and understand the limit of the vehicle. Staying withing the limit, I have more chance of staying out of the trouble.
I agree. However,.Snow tires make a big difference.
01-05-18, 04:39 PM
