BMW to unleash 26 M Cars
12-21-17, 10:45 AM
#47
Lexus Test Driver
Why do you care about it being rare?Its a mass produced car not a Bugatti or Ferrari from 50years ago.Auto industry had to evolve to serve many more people than even 30 years ago where countries like China and Russia were not even relevant. There is MUCH more demand now so the days of ///M or AMG or a 911 being rare are long gone.Hell a Lambo Huracan is NOT rare anymore lol, they are making and selling tons of them.You want rare, write a check for $2million and get a hypercar.
12-21-17, 11:54 AM
#48
Moderator: LFA, Clubhouse
Why do you care about it being rare?Its a mass produced car not a Bugatti or Ferrari from 50years ago.Auto industry had to evolve to serve many more people than even 30 years ago where countries like China and Russia were not even relevant. There is MUCH more demand now so the days of ///M or AMG or a 911 being rare are long gone.Hell a Lambo Huracan is NOT rare anymore lol, they are making and selling tons of them.You want rare, write a check for $2million and get a hypercar.
12-21-17, 12:21 PM
#49
Lexus Test Driver
I'm on BImmerpost enough and see some complaining but its from same ppl that have an older M car with a manual.
Not AMG fan so dont go on forums.
Again these days Ms and AMGs are not as rare because more people want them which is a good thing for the consumer as it means that BMW and MB will devote resources to build crazy HP cars that make no sense in the real world.
If you want exclusivity then move up and get AstonMartin or Bentley etc.
911 is not exclusive at all - there are a zillion versions yet they are selling better than ever.
Honestly i think that people that complain the most are not even in the market to buy these cars. I'm on my 2nd F80 M3 and look forward to as many more M cars as they can make!
BTW u can pick up used previous gen AMG or M cars for less than $20k all day.
These cars depreciate just like any other luxury car and are more of a status symbol rather than a raw performance versions like original E30 M3 was. The customer base has evolved from those days, next gen of cars will def be all hybrids and then eventually all EV.
You cant stop evolving and positioning your products to fullfill the demand of your customer base.
A true enthusiast will know a "real" M or AMG - just like they know a base 911 compared to a GT3.
Not AMG fan so dont go on forums.
Again these days Ms and AMGs are not as rare because more people want them which is a good thing for the consumer as it means that BMW and MB will devote resources to build crazy HP cars that make no sense in the real world.
If you want exclusivity then move up and get AstonMartin or Bentley etc.
911 is not exclusive at all - there are a zillion versions yet they are selling better than ever.
Honestly i think that people that complain the most are not even in the market to buy these cars. I'm on my 2nd F80 M3 and look forward to as many more M cars as they can make!
BTW u can pick up used previous gen AMG or M cars for less than $20k all day.
These cars depreciate just like any other luxury car and are more of a status symbol rather than a raw performance versions like original E30 M3 was. The customer base has evolved from those days, next gen of cars will def be all hybrids and then eventually all EV.
You cant stop evolving and positioning your products to fullfill the demand of your customer base.
A true enthusiast will know a "real" M or AMG - just like they know a base 911 compared to a GT3.
Last edited by RNM GS3; 12-21-17 at 12:32 PM.
12-21-17, 05:23 PM
#50
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
I really have no problem with the propagation of the M or AMG brands. There's still exclusivity in both brands, but it just moved upmarket so to speak in the higher numbers or certain models of those brands.
In regards to the massive AMG broadening, what Mercedes is seemingly doing is taking what use to be simple engine choices of the same car and sticking the AMG on the one with bigger, faster engine. In the old days, it would have just been separated by a model number. Now, they are taking that faster engine, bumping it a bit more (versus what it might have been under the old naming regime), adding more exclusive bits and likely raising the price and wala, more profit and allowing more people to taste that AMG brand.
I think it's great marketing. Just adds another aspirational level that owners of the brand can look up or forward to. More steps within the family instead of having to move out of the family to find something you want.
Lexus cannot do this, at all, because they simply do not have the engines to do it, plain and simple. Their engine strategy has been really poor. Like sharing single engine development through simple displacement sharing. Like 0.5 liters per cylinder. It's easier to engineer a 4.0 liter V8 and downsize that two cylinders off the same block to a 3.0 V6 and share a lot of engineering work into both engines. Toyota went oddball cylinder displacement that cannot be shared at different cylinder counts very easily. Dumb and inefficient and it shows now.
In regards to the massive AMG broadening, what Mercedes is seemingly doing is taking what use to be simple engine choices of the same car and sticking the AMG on the one with bigger, faster engine. In the old days, it would have just been separated by a model number. Now, they are taking that faster engine, bumping it a bit more (versus what it might have been under the old naming regime), adding more exclusive bits and likely raising the price and wala, more profit and allowing more people to taste that AMG brand.
I think it's great marketing. Just adds another aspirational level that owners of the brand can look up or forward to. More steps within the family instead of having to move out of the family to find something you want.
Lexus cannot do this, at all, because they simply do not have the engines to do it, plain and simple. Their engine strategy has been really poor. Like sharing single engine development through simple displacement sharing. Like 0.5 liters per cylinder. It's easier to engineer a 4.0 liter V8 and downsize that two cylinders off the same block to a 3.0 V6 and share a lot of engineering work into both engines. Toyota went oddball cylinder displacement that cannot be shared at different cylinder counts very easily. Dumb and inefficient and it shows now.
12-21-17, 07:18 PM
#51
Lexus Champion
Lexus cannot do this, at all, because they simply do not have the engines to do it, plain and simple. Their engine strategy has been really poor. Like sharing single engine development through simple displacement sharing. Like 0.5 liters per cylinder. It's easier to engineer a 4.0 liter V8 and downsize that two cylinders off the same block to a 3.0 V6 and share a lot of engineering work into both engines. Toyota went oddball cylinder displacement that cannot be shared at different cylinder counts very easily. Dumb and inefficient and it shows now.
Whoever is still doing the chop-off-2-cylinders-from-V8 trick will get a bad, rough V6. A V8 has a 90deg angle between the 2 banks. A good, smooth V6 has a 60deg angle. A V6 with a 90deg angle is prone to vibration.
Mercedes-Benz did it with their early-2000s V6 engines but incorporated a balance shaft to deal with the excess vibration. MB has since gone back to Inline-6 engines, which are super-smooth without need for intentional vibration damping.
Automakers that do this are just plain lazy, in my opinion. You may start with a good engine but the chopped engine is substandard.
If you do not like Toyota's engines, that is fine, but please, stop making up bad, incorrect arguments to try to prove that they are bad.
12-21-17, 07:27 PM
#52
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
It’s a figure of speech.
When you design an engine around a certain volume of displacement, it’s easy or easier to move from eight to six cylinders based around all the design elements of that 0.5 liters.
Why do you think there’s such a preponderance of 4.0 V8s and 3.0 V6s from the same manufacturer?
There’s an article about how MB focused on 4.0 V8 and 3.0 V6 just because a lot engineering can be shared between the two.
When you design an engine around a certain volume of displacement, it’s easy or easier to move from eight to six cylinders based around all the design elements of that 0.5 liters.
Why do you think there’s such a preponderance of 4.0 V8s and 3.0 V6s from the same manufacturer?
There’s an article about how MB focused on 4.0 V8 and 3.0 V6 just because a lot engineering can be shared between the two.
12-21-17, 07:32 PM
#53
Lexus Champion
It’s a figure of speech.
When you design an engine around a certain volume of displacement, it’s easy or easier to move from eight to six cylinders based around all the design elements of that 0.5 liters.
Why do you think there’s such a preponderance of 4.0 V8s and 3.0 V6s from the same manufacturer?
There’s an article about how MB focused on 4.0 V8 and 3.0 V6 just because a lot engineering can be shared between the two.
When you design an engine around a certain volume of displacement, it’s easy or easier to move from eight to six cylinders based around all the design elements of that 0.5 liters.
Why do you think there’s such a preponderance of 4.0 V8s and 3.0 V6s from the same manufacturer?
There’s an article about how MB focused on 4.0 V8 and 3.0 V6 just because a lot engineering can be shared between the two.
12-21-17, 07:45 PM
#55
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Here you go, Mr. Name Caller:
https://blog.caranddriver.com/why-0-...engine-design/
Lexus didn’t get the memo...
https://blog.caranddriver.com/why-0-...engine-design/
This modular approach enables 60-percent commonality of the component parts across three gas engines and 30 to 40 percent with the corresponding two diesel engines.
12-21-17, 09:10 PM
#56
Moderator: LFA, Clubhouse
Lexus cannot do this, at all, because they simply do not have the engines to do it, plain and simple. Their engine strategy has been really poor. Like sharing single engine development through simple displacement sharing. Like 0.5 liters per cylinder. It's easier to engineer a 4.0 liter V8 and downsize that two cylinders off the same block to a 3.0 V6 and share a lot of engineering work into both engines. Toyota went oddball cylinder displacement that cannot be shared at different cylinder counts very easily. Dumb and inefficient and it shows now.
This is ridiculous. Neither Lexus nor Toyota has ever used a V8-derived V6. Ever. The notion of Lexus/Toyota putting a chopped-off 90° V6 in their cars goes against everything Lexus historically aimed for - NVH, and all that.
12-21-17, 09:51 PM
#57
Lexus Fanatic
Gotta agree with Steve on this one. Why should Lexus jump on an ultra-high-performance niche, just because the Germans do, that would be only a very small proportion of sales at most? IMO, they would be better off taking that money and restoring the build-quality that they had 15-20 years ago.......fretted away through cost-cutting.
12-21-17, 09:56 PM
#58
Lexus Fanatic
Ask yourself why Toyota and Lexus engines are so reliable. One significant reason (among several) is that the company simply does not obsess itself with AMG-levels of HP or torque. True, power alone does not necessarily mean an engine will be unreliable (as witnessed by some older American V8s)....but, in general, all else equal, less power means less strain and potential wear.
12-21-17, 10:14 PM
#59
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
You don’t have to foresake reliability to build a decent engine. They’re not mutually exclusive.
In fact, the Supra turbo engine kind of set the ultimate tone in that regards, which is a bit ironic, so that shouldn’t be an excuse.
In fact, the Supra turbo engine kind of set the ultimate tone in that regards, which is a bit ironic, so that shouldn’t be an excuse.
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