2018 Mazda6 (gets a more powerful engine option finally)
11-25-17, 08:27 PM
#61
He leased the vehicle brand new.
Was the Golf you tested brand new, or a couple of years old?
The wet multiplate clutches wear & age quickly due to low speed creeping/crawling "slippage".
I've heard owners say that it's cheaper for them to buy a new Golf, to repair their Golf DCT...
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 11-25-17 at 11:20 PM.
11-26-17, 04:34 AM
#62
Well, that's a shame then. It would have been a great car had they decided to offer a manual with the turbo engine. 2018 Accord sedan 2.0T 6-speed manual all the way in that case. A win for Honda and a loss for Mazda, the company that makes "fun" cars.
There are may good DCT's. The BorgWarner DCT in the GTR is very good and so is the DCT in the VW GTI to name two. They are, however, being gradually outmoded by ever more advanced automatics, so long as the transmission programming is actually good and not fall-on-its-face terrible.
In racing and hypercar applications a DCT or even the Agera's direct drive make the most sense. In a very affordable daily driver road car though...? That's where a manual transmission, for those who prefer them, makes the most sense. Because you don't NEED super fast shifting if you aren't competing in state of the art racing environments. What you want is engaging fun from shifting the gears yourself. It's not about how fast the transmission is. Who cares about that when a manual is much more fun?
Traditional manuals have been surpassed, yes. And that changes their fun appeal in road cars for manual lovers... how? It doesn't. Mazda offers manuals on nearly all of their vehicles, not just the Miata (where it is prerequisite) or on the discontinued RX-8 (where it was also prerequisite).
In a car like this from, of all companies, Mazda, I have to say that not offering a true manual option on the turbo 6 sedan is a head scratcher. This is Mazda, not Toyota or Lexus. Honda seems to be the only company that still gets it.
^^ Both of these points. Actually front wheel drive with a turbocharger is fine... so long as there is a mechanical LSD. None of this brake-based traction control, please. Mazda used an LSD on the discontinued MazdaSpeed 3 and on the even older AWD MazdaSpeed 6. It's not that hard to offer one on the option list. An AWD system as standard or optional would be great but a helical mechanical LSD would suffice.
When I test drove a 2013 Ford Focus ST (6-speed manual only) which had 250hp I was underwhelmed by the standard open differential combined with electronic brake-based traction control. If you're used to an LSD car or even a system such as Honda's SH-AWD or the last Prelude's front-drive "SH" electronic torque vectoring differential you can tell the difference.
Even though the Tesla Model S has just an open differential and brake-based traction control some folks (or maybe it was Saleen) STILL went to Quaife to have a mechanical torque-biasing LSD unit custom made for the single speed drive unit. And it does indeed make it better to drive. They're expensive LSDs but available even for those cars (or just the S rear drive units if doing a conversion to a gas car).
Even with improvements to front-drive double wishbone suspensions to reduce torque steer those solutions can only go so far.
It is understandable that this would not be a standard feature on this car but again... this being Mazda I would expect an LSD on their turbo front-drive model more than from other manufacturers. And a manual option.
Manual gearboxes have been superseded by dual clutch autos, similar to those used in Formula 1 racing, because DCT's are presently the quickest transmissions on the planet with gear changes in just 8 millisecods.
However, DCT's have not replaced the torque converter with epicyclic gears, because like anything, DCT's have their share of issues including wet multiplate clutch pack slippage, overheating, burning, wear & reliability issues - at low speeds as the vehicle creeps/crawls.
DCT's will hunt, clunk & shudder.
DCT's will lurch during parking, making inch maneuvers impossible.
However, DCT's are great for F1 racing & hi end sports cars.
.
However, DCT's have not replaced the torque converter with epicyclic gears, because like anything, DCT's have their share of issues including wet multiplate clutch pack slippage, overheating, burning, wear & reliability issues - at low speeds as the vehicle creeps/crawls.
DCT's will hunt, clunk & shudder.
DCT's will lurch during parking, making inch maneuvers impossible.
However, DCT's are great for F1 racing & hi end sports cars.
.
In racing and hypercar applications a DCT or even the Agera's direct drive make the most sense. In a very affordable daily driver road car though...? That's where a manual transmission, for those who prefer them, makes the most sense. Because you don't NEED super fast shifting if you aren't competing in state of the art racing environments. What you want is engaging fun from shifting the gears yourself. It's not about how fast the transmission is. Who cares about that when a manual is much more fun?
Traditional manuals have been surpassed, yes. And that changes their fun appeal in road cars for manual lovers... how? It doesn't. Mazda offers manuals on nearly all of their vehicles, not just the Miata (where it is prerequisite) or on the discontinued RX-8 (where it was also prerequisite).
In a car like this from, of all companies, Mazda, I have to say that not offering a true manual option on the turbo 6 sedan is a head scratcher. This is Mazda, not Toyota or Lexus. Honda seems to be the only company that still gets it.
When I test drove a 2013 Ford Focus ST (6-speed manual only) which had 250hp I was underwhelmed by the standard open differential combined with electronic brake-based traction control. If you're used to an LSD car or even a system such as Honda's SH-AWD or the last Prelude's front-drive "SH" electronic torque vectoring differential you can tell the difference.
Even though the Tesla Model S has just an open differential and brake-based traction control some folks (or maybe it was Saleen) STILL went to Quaife to have a mechanical torque-biasing LSD unit custom made for the single speed drive unit. And it does indeed make it better to drive. They're expensive LSDs but available even for those cars (or just the S rear drive units if doing a conversion to a gas car).
Even with improvements to front-drive double wishbone suspensions to reduce torque steer those solutions can only go so far.
It is understandable that this would not be a standard feature on this car but again... this being Mazda I would expect an LSD on their turbo front-drive model more than from other manufacturers. And a manual option.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 11-26-17 at 04:42 AM.
11-26-17, 06:32 AM
#63
Lexus Champion
Several years ago the take rate on manual transmissions in the U.S. market was <10% and declining. I can see why Mazda wouldn't offer on in the Mazda6 (although it would be nice). Mazda has sold 30k 6's YTD (-23%) so if a manual accounted for 6%-8% of sales that would only be around 2,000 units per year, probably not enough to warrant the manual. And you can imagine how reluctant dealers would be to keep any in inventory. Currently the CX-5 alone represents 43% of Mazda's volume so we can see where their emphasis is right now. Personally, I'd consider a 6 over a Camry, Accord etc.
11-26-17, 07:49 AM
#64
Lexus Champion
Several years ago the take rate on manual transmissions in the U.S. market was <10% and declining. I can see why Mazda wouldn't offer on in the Mazda6 (although it would be nice). Mazda has sold 30k 6's YTD (-23%) so if a manual accounted for 6%-8% of sales that would only be around 2,000 units per year, probably not enough to warrant the manual. And you can imagine how reluctant dealers would be to keep any in inventory. Currently the CX-5 alone represents 43% of Mazda's volume so we can see where their emphasis is right now. Personally, I'd consider a 6 over a Camry, Accord etc.
Honda OTH probably sells way more Accords than Mazda sells 6's, so they're ok with offering the manual to a very small group of Accord buyers who want that. The extra costs are spread across the lineup.
11-26-17, 08:47 AM
#65
Pole Position
Several years ago the take rate on manual transmissions in the U.S. market was <10% and declining. I can see why Mazda wouldn't offer on in the Mazda6 (although it would be nice). Mazda has sold 30k 6's YTD (-23%) so if a manual accounted for 6%-8% of sales that would only be around 2,000 units per year, probably not enough to warrant the manual. And you can imagine how reluctant dealers would be to keep any in inventory. Currently the CX-5 alone represents 43% of Mazda's volume so we can see where their emphasis is right now. Personally, I'd consider a 6 over a Camry, Accord etc.
11-26-17, 09:16 AM
#66
Lexus Champion
11-26-17, 02:51 PM
#67
^^ That's very sad, to strategize to only offer their top range engine option with only an automatic... globally. Sad. That automatic should be near telepathic to be the sole option.
As for dealers being reluctant to keep stock of slow(er) selling manual Mazda 6's, that is a problem very easily solved by actually allowing customers to custom-order their desired manual transmission Mazda from the factory during the production cycle. Heaven forbid customers be allowed to do that because such an option might cut into the bulk of the lot inventory... that doesn't have the option combination the customer is looking for anyway.
Actually I know that Toyota and Lexus do not allow customers to special order anything. Not sure where Mazda stands on this but I do not think they do, nor does Honda or Nissan.
As for dealers being reluctant to keep stock of slow(er) selling manual Mazda 6's, that is a problem very easily solved by actually allowing customers to custom-order their desired manual transmission Mazda from the factory during the production cycle. Heaven forbid customers be allowed to do that because such an option might cut into the bulk of the lot inventory... that doesn't have the option combination the customer is looking for anyway.
Actually I know that Toyota and Lexus do not allow customers to special order anything. Not sure where Mazda stands on this but I do not think they do, nor does Honda or Nissan.
11-26-17, 04:55 PM
#69
Lexus Fanatic
^^ That's very sad, to strategize to only offer their top range engine option with only an automatic... globally. Sad. That automatic should be near telepathic to be the sole option.
As for dealers being reluctant to keep stock of slow(er) selling manual Mazda 6's, that is a problem very easily solved by actually allowing customers to custom-order their desired manual transmission Mazda from the factory during the production cycle. Heaven forbid customers be allowed to do that because such an option might cut into the bulk of the lot inventory... that doesn't have the option combination the customer is looking for anyway.
Actually I know that Toyota and Lexus do not allow customers to special order anything. Not sure where Mazda stands on this but I do not think they do, nor does Honda or Nissan.
As for dealers being reluctant to keep stock of slow(er) selling manual Mazda 6's, that is a problem very easily solved by actually allowing customers to custom-order their desired manual transmission Mazda from the factory during the production cycle. Heaven forbid customers be allowed to do that because such an option might cut into the bulk of the lot inventory... that doesn't have the option combination the customer is looking for anyway.
Actually I know that Toyota and Lexus do not allow customers to special order anything. Not sure where Mazda stands on this but I do not think they do, nor does Honda or Nissan.
11-26-17, 05:17 PM
#70
Lexus Champion
I think Audi has gone to the 7 speed dual clutch in their current gen A4, A5 and Q5. I'm not sure about The A6 and up. I look in on an Audi forum now and then and some drivers have complained about low speed jerkiness with their 7 speed dual clutch transmissions. It doesn't seem widespread though.
11-26-17, 05:53 PM
#71
I think Audi has gone to the 7 speed dual clutch in their current gen A4, A5 and Q5. I'm not sure about The A6 and up. I look in on an Audi forum now and then and some drivers have complained about low speed jerkiness with their 7 speed dual clutch transmissions. It doesn't seem widespread though.
2018 Models
A3 6-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
A4 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
S4 8-Speed Tiptronic Auto 3.0T
A6 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
A6 8-Speed Tiptronic Auto 3.0T
A5 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
Q5 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
RS5 8-Speed Triptronic Auto 2.9T
11-26-17, 07:05 PM
#72
I checked Audiusa.com. You're correct. Interesting that bigger/more powerful engines get just the Auto. Maybe it handles torque better than the DCT
2018 Models
A3 6-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
A4 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
S4 8-Speed Tiptronic Auto 3.0T
A6 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
A6 8-Speed Tiptronic Auto 3.0T
A5 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
Q5 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
RS5 8-Speed Triptronic Auto 2.9T
2018 Models
A3 6-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
A4 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
S4 8-Speed Tiptronic Auto 3.0T
A6 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
A6 8-Speed Tiptronic Auto 3.0T
A5 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
Q5 7-Speed S Tronic DCT 2.0T
RS5 8-Speed Triptronic Auto 2.9T
11-27-17, 12:07 AM
#73
A lot depends on just where the plant is located, and where the customer is ordering from. Obviously, for an American customer, it's usually a lot easier to custom-order something built in the U.S. (or maybe in Canada) than it is to have that vehicle shipped across the Atlantic or Pacific on a boat.
At the very least, so long as a vehicle configuration WAS crash and emission certified for a certain market and the options are available on the order sheet for anyone to see and take advantage of *within* a model's production cycle it should always be possible to place a special order for a vehicle even if you're asking for a rare or unpopular combination.
For Miatas (and even the 90's RX-7's and the 2000's RX-8's) I do wonder if custom ordering configurations ever was or still is allowed.
I just can't get past Mazda choosing not to offer a manual in their turbocharged 6. Especially with their very efficient and low emission engine technology helping things out. Mazda as a brand has traditionally stood out with driver-centric offerings like those at least being available if not ubiquitous. It's one of the draws of considering a Mazda 6 over a Camry and possibly an Accord. Now the Accord has this niche advantage.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 11-27-17 at 12:14 AM.
11-28-17, 05:13 PM
#74
Pole Position
Believe it or not Audi was banging a CVT in 2.0 engines both gasoline and diesel (except 190hp variation) right up until A4 B9. I remember one of their chiefs stating how they've "found a way" to pair DCT with low end four bangers. He probably meant they cut the cost somewhere else in order to squeeze 'em in or they just put dirty Skoda spec DCTs in.
11-29-17, 10:37 AM
#75
Believe it or not Audi was banging a CVT in 2.0 engines both gasoline and diesel (except 190hp variation) right up until A4 B9. I remember one of their chiefs stating how they've "found a way" to pair DCT with low end four bangers. He probably meant they cut the cost somewhere else in order to squeeze 'em in or they just put dirty Skoda spec DCTs in.