CR rates Tesla 3 as 'average' without even driving it
10-22-17, 06:28 AM
#31
Lexus Fanatic
Every auto maker shares components it is impossible, not to mention impractical and expensive to make exclusive parts for a given model this goes against the very thing that makes cars affordable, mass production. In the case of Tesla they will share many electronic components/controllers, batteries, motors the list will be extensive.
10-22-17, 07:42 AM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
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Every auto maker shares components it is impossible, not to mention impractical and expensive to make exclusive parts for a given model this goes against the very thing that makes cars affordable, mass production. In the case of Tesla they will share many electronic components/controllers, batteries, motors the list will be extensive.
10-22-17, 07:59 AM
#33
Lexus Champion
CR would already know how reliable the battery pack and motors are from the previous models, so it would not be gazing too far into a crystal ball to forecast a reliability figure for the Model 3.
10-22-17, 08:10 AM
#34
Lexus Fanatic
The Model 3 is supposed to be Everyman's electric car, the inexpensive, mass-market model. To be able to do that, Tesla would have to cheapen out on absolutely everything... OR they would have to share major components with the Models S and X, namely the battery and the electric motors.
CR would already know how reliable the battery pack and motors are from the previous models, so it would not be gazing too far into a crystal ball to forecast a reliability figure for the Model 3.
CR would already know how reliable the battery pack and motors are from the previous models, so it would not be gazing too far into a crystal ball to forecast a reliability figure for the Model 3.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 10-22-17 at 08:14 AM.
10-22-17, 08:29 AM
#35
Lexus Champion
Any new component would also mean more engineering, not "less engineering". The only way to minimum engineering on a component in a new car is to re-use an already-engineered, already-proven component.
The battery we know is shared; that is why Tesla built the Gigafactory, so that they can truly bring economies of scale to battery production, to bring the cost of their batteries down to an absolute minimum for ALL of their vehicles.
10-22-17, 08:33 AM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
Perhaps CR should just tell us their Tesla 3 driving impressions without actually driving the car.
10-22-17, 08:54 AM
#37
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
I do not know about the electric motors, but did make a very-well educated guess, knowing that drivetrain components are a major cost of any new vehicle.
Any new component would also mean more engineering, not "less engineering". The only way to minimum engineering on a component in a new car is to re-use an already-engineered, already-proven component.
Any new component would also mean more engineering, not "less engineering". The only way to minimum engineering on a component in a new car is to re-use an already-engineered, already-proven component.
by your reasoning toyota should just use a camry's 4cyl on everything because it's already-proven but that makes no sense in an lx570 or an lc500 or fr-s, etc.
another example, nasa's rockets and infrastructure were 'already-proven' but ludicrously expensive compared to what spacex has come up with in a clean sheet design. the nasa 'crawler' that brought spaceships and shuttles to the launchpads cost an insane amount to operate and maintain - spacex? they use a flatbed trailer.
The battery we know is shared;
that is why Tesla built the Gigafactory, so that they can truly bring economies of scale to battery production, to bring the cost of their batteries down to an absolute minimum for ALL of their vehicles.
10-22-17, 08:55 AM
#38
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
10-22-17, 09:04 AM
#39
Lexus Champion
10-22-17, 09:15 AM
#40
Lexus Champion
Yes they are, 100%. Tesla has not invented some new way to mass produce cars, they are using essentially the same tried and true methods. Now if you're saying Telsa is doing it better, well maybe. The Gigafactory is taking economy of scale to new extremes.
Sigh, just no. The model S and X are mass production, not limited edition cars. They are not made like an LFA. Telsa is taking what they learned with the S and X and scaling it down into a lower priced car, a big part of the way they are able to do this is they use the same tooling, same components.
At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing against CR, stop.
BTW the Model S has sold 100,000+ in the United States hardly a low volume car given the price.
the S and X were very limited volume and high end ($) models - the 3 has to be made very differently. but like CR, we're all just guessing.
At this point you're just arguing for the sake of arguing against CR, stop.
BTW the Model S has sold 100,000+ in the United States hardly a low volume car given the price.
10-22-17, 12:21 PM
#41
CR's ratings for reliability is provided by owners- I've received a few of their surveys. In the past, when a new model comes out, even though they don't have actual data, they've given 'below average' if the carmaker typically gets this rating, 'above average', etc. Then a year later when they get actual data the ratings change. I believe there's a couple of Honda's they've done this with. They are probably taking the good rating of the S & not so good of the X and hitting a happy medium until they get some good numbers. In their magazine, their driving impression can be completely different than their reliability rankings.
10-22-17, 12:28 PM
#42
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
Tesla’s proprietary 2170 cells, produced in conjunction with partner Panasonic, replaces the more common 18650 form factor cells that’s currently being used in the Model S and Model X battery packs. Tesla CTO JB Straubel noted earlier in the year that the 2170 cells were designed from the ground up to be the optimal in size and energy density for electric vehicles, balancing energy storage with external surface area to allow for sufficient cooling.
Though one might assume that future Model S and Model X refreshes may also include a battery pack upgrade in the form of newer 2170 cells and similar to Model 3’s battery pack, Tesla CEO Elon Musk indicated that there’s no such plans. “No plans to change cell form factor for X and S” said Musk in a tweet posted in June.
Though one might assume that future Model S and Model X refreshes may also include a battery pack upgrade in the form of newer 2170 cells and similar to Model 3’s battery pack, Tesla CEO Elon Musk indicated that there’s no such plans. “No plans to change cell form factor for X and S” said Musk in a tweet posted in June.
or this:
With a starting price of $35,000, the Tesla Model 3 is half the price of the vehicles Tesla is used to designing and manufacturing, the automaker’s flagship Model S and Model X all-electric vehicles.
In order to achieve this more affordable price, Tesla had to design a whole new platform and battery pack architecture.
...
That’s the main difference for the core architecture, but there are also several other more subtle changes that can give us some interesting insights into the new all-electric vehicles.
...
Unlike the Model S and Model X battery pack, Tesla didn’t make the Model 3 battery pack to be easily swappable. There are bolts, which are only accessible by removing trims from the interior of the car, that need to be removed in order to eject the pack.
It’s probably the last blow to Tesla’s battery swap station scheme, which was put on the back burner last year.
...
Another interesting point is that the Model 3 pack has no externally accessible high voltage connector other than the charge port, which kills the idea of an autonomous charging access point under the vehicle – something that Tesla has been working on: Tesla patent shows new way to automated high-speed charging with external cooling.
Tesla also designed the Model 3 battery pack to include the charger, fast-charge contactors, and DC-DC converter all in the same package. The packs also already have the necessary connectors for the upcoming all-wheel-drive dual motor option.
The automaker also incorporated some other ingenious designs to save weight and cost.
For example, it got rid of the external battery pack heater and instead, it heats the pack only using heat provided by the powertrain even when the car is parked.
...
Finally for the more inside baseball stuff, here are the main electronic components of the battery pack:
1. Charge port connector 2. Fast charge contactor assembly 3. Coolant line to PCS 4. PCS – Power Conversion System 5. HVC – High Voltage Controller 6. Low voltage connector to HVC from the vehicle 7. 12V output from PCS 8. Positive HV power switch 9. Coolant line to PCS 10. HV connector to cabin heater and compressor 11. Cabin heater, compressor and PCS DC output fuse 12. HV connector to rear drive unit 13. HV pyro fuse 15. HV connector to front drive unit 16. Negative HV power switch 17. Connector for 3 phase AC charging
In order to achieve this more affordable price, Tesla had to design a whole new platform and battery pack architecture.
...
That’s the main difference for the core architecture, but there are also several other more subtle changes that can give us some interesting insights into the new all-electric vehicles.
...
Unlike the Model S and Model X battery pack, Tesla didn’t make the Model 3 battery pack to be easily swappable. There are bolts, which are only accessible by removing trims from the interior of the car, that need to be removed in order to eject the pack.
It’s probably the last blow to Tesla’s battery swap station scheme, which was put on the back burner last year.
...
Another interesting point is that the Model 3 pack has no externally accessible high voltage connector other than the charge port, which kills the idea of an autonomous charging access point under the vehicle – something that Tesla has been working on: Tesla patent shows new way to automated high-speed charging with external cooling.
Tesla also designed the Model 3 battery pack to include the charger, fast-charge contactors, and DC-DC converter all in the same package. The packs also already have the necessary connectors for the upcoming all-wheel-drive dual motor option.
The automaker also incorporated some other ingenious designs to save weight and cost.
For example, it got rid of the external battery pack heater and instead, it heats the pack only using heat provided by the powertrain even when the car is parked.
...
Finally for the more inside baseball stuff, here are the main electronic components of the battery pack:
1. Charge port connector 2. Fast charge contactor assembly 3. Coolant line to PCS 4. PCS – Power Conversion System 5. HVC – High Voltage Controller 6. Low voltage connector to HVC from the vehicle 7. 12V output from PCS 8. Positive HV power switch 9. Coolant line to PCS 10. HV connector to cabin heater and compressor 11. Cabin heater, compressor and PCS DC output fuse 12. HV connector to rear drive unit 13. HV pyro fuse 15. HV connector to front drive unit 16. Negative HV power switch 17. Connector for 3 phase AC charging
so the batteries and many other aspects are NOT the same, at all. the 3 is DIFFERENT. but yeah it has 4 wheels and a steering wheel.
10-22-17, 05:27 PM
#43
Lexus Champion
10-22-17, 05:39 PM
#44
Lexus Fanatic
.............which, then, begs the question of whether the actual steering wheel does the steering, or the electronics attached to it, like on the Adaptive-Steer Infiniti Q50.
I bring that up, in relation to this thread, because, obviously, the reliability of those steer-by-wire electronics is crucial to a vehicle's safety.
I bring that up, in relation to this thread, because, obviously, the reliability of those steer-by-wire electronics is crucial to a vehicle's safety.
10-22-17, 05:55 PM
#45
Lexus Champion
Drive by wire steering downright scares me, do not want.