Toyota dominates CR reliability survey again
10-22-17, 08:25 AM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
CR could only do that if their test engineers took part in the automaker-sponsored introduction-and-preview-drive parties.
I call them "parties" for a very specific reason: They are typically held in specially-chosen (even exotic) locations, in very well-controlled conditions (well-controlled by the automaker to put their new product in the best light), and these parties are completely paid for by the automaker (transportation to and from the location, hotel accommodation and meals). That is why some Canadian reviewers have gotten into the habit of adding a disclaimer -- along the lines of "this introduction and test drive was paid for by the automaker" -- as a word of warning to readers who may accuse the reviewer of being biased on behalf of the automaker.
Does CR take part in these highly-biased introduction parties or does it wait until it can actually go out and buy a new model in a retail channel (which is their policy) before driving a new model for the first time? A new model will not be available for retail purchase until some time after the initial (prototype) test drives, sometimes months if last-minute quality issues are found during initial mass assembly.
You have to understand how CR works, and it seems obvious that many people who complain about CR do not know how they work.
I call them "parties" for a very specific reason: They are typically held in specially-chosen (even exotic) locations, in very well-controlled conditions (well-controlled by the automaker to put their new product in the best light), and these parties are completely paid for by the automaker (transportation to and from the location, hotel accommodation and meals). That is why some Canadian reviewers have gotten into the habit of adding a disclaimer -- along the lines of "this introduction and test drive was paid for by the automaker" -- as a word of warning to readers who may accuse the reviewer of being biased on behalf of the automaker.
Does CR take part in these highly-biased introduction parties or does it wait until it can actually go out and buy a new model in a retail channel (which is their policy) before driving a new model for the first time? A new model will not be available for retail purchase until some time after the initial (prototype) test drives, sometimes months if last-minute quality issues are found during initial mass assembly.
You have to understand how CR works, and it seems obvious that many people who complain about CR do not know how they work.
Either way has a bias. However, the review needs to free from bias from other reviews. Day and date release corrects this.
10-22-17, 08:35 AM
#47
Lexus Champion
I clearly understand how CR works. It is nice and cute that they buy theirs own cars, but that still does not take away from the fact that they can pander and aim their reviews towards their subscription base.
Either way has a bias. However, the review needs to free from bias from other reviews. Day and date release corrects this.
Either way has a bias. However, the review needs to free from bias from other reviews. Day and date release corrects this.
10-22-17, 08:41 AM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
How would taking part in an automaker-sponsored introduction-and-preview party, in which the automaker pays for everything, from air transportation, to limousine-pickup at the airport, luxury accommodations in a top-rated hotel or resort, and all meals, not be seen as not biased?
Both MT and C & Driver as well as CR include an element of bias. For me, MT and whomever releases their reviews are not influenced by other publications on their release day. I have felt for some while now that CR carefully aims their reviews towards their subscriber base based on what has been said in the media from other cars. This is my isssue with them. I am not really concerned that big publications have their travel paid for.
10-22-17, 08:50 AM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
10-22-17, 12:47 PM
#50
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i do get the "well CR might not be perfect but what else is better?" argument, but i might say anything is better if CR is so reckless and loose with the facts, assumptions, lack of transparency, and past record of egregious errors.
liked this anecdote/comment about the difference in owner experiences:
I have a 1985 Dodge Daytona that has 135,000 miles on it. It runs great. At about 85,000 miles the timing belt broke, stranding my wife. The maintenance schedule says nothing about replacing the belt. Dodge thinks it's OK to wait till it breaks and then replace it; the design is such that it does nothing bad to the engine. However, to my wife, the car broke down and had a "serious engine problem." [Note: the manual actually does suggest replacing the belt at 105,000 miles.]
My friend with a Nissan Maxima just had his 60,000 mile maintenance at the dealer. He had the timing belt replaced, the fuel injectors cleaned, oil change, etc. and a fuel injectorreplaced. Cost, $850! If he filled out the CR form, he would show no major problems, just routine maintenance.
He then told me he was considering replacing all of his shocks because "it was about time." No Dodge owner would ever consider replacing shocks before the car bounced down the road. All Dodge had to do was recommend the belt change at 60,000 miles to avoid a "serious engine problem."
My friend with a Nissan Maxima just had his 60,000 mile maintenance at the dealer. He had the timing belt replaced, the fuel injectors cleaned, oil change, etc. and a fuel injectorreplaced. Cost, $850! If he filled out the CR form, he would show no major problems, just routine maintenance.
He then told me he was considering replacing all of his shocks because "it was about time." No Dodge owner would ever consider replacing shocks before the car bounced down the road. All Dodge had to do was recommend the belt change at 60,000 miles to avoid a "serious engine problem."
10-22-17, 12:50 PM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
10-22-17, 01:04 PM
#52
Lexus Champion
Does this reckless activity, egregious errors and lack of transparency bring into question the results of the thread topic? If so, these results must be questioned/challenged too. No?.
10-22-17, 02:14 PM
#53
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
no because everyone knows (we don't need CR to tell us) that brands like toyota and honda have exemplary product quality and reliability records. but cr's 'method' is guaranteed to confirm this even more due to confirmation and subscriber base bias...
10-22-17, 07:02 PM
#54
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
another great article
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
Here is an interesting take on CR.
I have felt for some while now that CR carefully aims their reviews towards their subscriber base based on what has been said in the media from other cars. This is my isssue with them. I am not really concerned that big publications have their travel paid for.
One of the things to remember is the law of large numbers that dictates probability. This mathematical law tells you that if you flipped a coin 1,000,000 times - you should be able to safely say that half the time it will flip to heads, and half the time it show tails. 1:1.
What happens when on the say, 1004th flip you've been noticing that this darned coin has been flipping endlessly on heads. You keep saying, it's gotta go tails next time for sure. No, it won't because once that coin is flipped enough times then it will eventually even out so that the 1:1 ratio prevails.
What does this have to with CR? It has to do with the fact that they have a large enough subscriber base and its large sampling rate to be able to tell you a lot about a car's characteristics over the long run. The idea that C&D, MT or Michael Karesh have that type of firepower is frankly ridiculous and complete ignorance of how quality control and durability are determined. Toyota and Lexus win, as does Honda because they know about failure rates, engineering standards and long term durability.
Tesla is being rated as average because CR has already said, they can only predict some things but not others. But there is great interest in their new product, so CR wants to tell its subscribers what it know at present and then extrapolate to the near future. The fact that CR gets attacked for that is amazing to read.
At one time in the last few years CR was attacked by the big corporate magazines. They didn't like the uncomfortable dirt about how they were shilling themselves out for a road test/review at heavily controlled press tours. After that didn't work, the MSM auto press suddenly liked CR and mentioned them in their reviews and suddenly didn't want to plead the fifth on fancy hotels, and fancy wine tours with nice cars.
10-22-17, 07:56 PM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Except their subscriber base looks at a lot of critical factors with a big purchase like a vehicle. They want to know what this brand's past history is (hello Land Rover), what's going on with the present (the vehicle in front of you), and how it compares to alternatives. Going to a fancy destination in business class, checking into a nice hotel with nice meals and heavily structured marketing event does not constitute a critical review of anything except the shiny object in front of you.
so really NO useful way to compare across all brands of such diverse vehicles AND usage.
Tesla is being rated as average because CR has already said, they can only predict some things but not others. But there is great interest in their new product, so CR wants to tell its subscribers what it know at present and then extrapolate to the near future. The fact that CR gets attacked for that is amazing to read.
but hey, it's a bit like faith with CR, either you believe or you don't.
10-22-17, 08:08 PM
#56
Lexus Champion
Sounds like CR should just shut up and marketers and assorted shills and yahoos should prevail according to who the highest bidder is. Nice. Luckily CR is a subscriber based organization as it has been for decades, not a swing around the car-testing stripper pole and wait for the dollar bills to be stuffed into the ole profit garter belt.
10-22-17, 08:32 PM
#57
Lexus Fanatic
10-22-17, 09:17 PM
#58
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
no because everyone knows (we don't need CR to tell us) that brands like toyota and honda have exemplary product quality and reliability records. but cr's 'method' is guaranteed to confirm this even more due to confirmation and subscriber base bias...
knew that was coming, but you might read the REASONING on their which is quite sound as to why CR's way is broken or just amounts to confirmation bias in many ways.
Deep in the report, CR notes that “reliability has been a major weakness of every FCA brand of late.” But the 300 has been generally “impressive,” while Pacifica “has been a standout for FCA, with a top score in our road tests and excellent fuel economy.” The 200 remains at the bottom of its reliability category.Ram moved up four notches thanks to improvements made by the 1500 model. Neither the heavy-duty 2500 and 3500 gained any ground in reliability, however.Overall, Consumer Reports reported a lot of movement on its scale among most brands, the major exception being Toyota and Lexus, which remained in the first and second slots, respectively. You can see the list here.Using tens of thousands of reports filed by current owners of vehicles, CR rates each nameplate and brand on a scale of one to 100, with any rating between 41 and 60 being “reliable.”
10-22-17, 11:10 PM
#59
Not getting into the whole Consumer Reports thing here, but I will speak from personal experience. From my personal experience and from friends/family who have owned Toyotas, they are great cars, extremely reliable, hold up well with age, when they do break/need service the price is reasonable. Main thing that has turned me on to Toyota is how they look/drive after 10 years and 150k, 200k miles. They still feel tight, still drive tight, still run like a new car, and don't nickle/dime their owners. Also the other thing I like about Toyota is their whole product range is reliable, its not like Ford where you don't buy an older Taurus, you avoid F150's with the 5.4 V8, the new Escape has all kinds of problems,you don't buy an automatic equipped Fiesta or Focus, but the manual transmission version is a great car.
10-23-17, 05:40 AM
#60
Lexus Fanatic
Not getting into the whole Consumer Reports thing here, but I will speak from personal experience. From my personal experience and from friends/family who have owned Toyotas, they are great cars, extremely reliable, hold up well with age, when they do break/need service the price is reasonable. Main thing that has turned me on to Toyota is how they look/drive after 10 years and 150k, 200k miles. They still feel tight, still drive tight, still run like a new car, and don't nickle/dime their owners. Also the other thing I like about Toyota is their whole product range is reliable, its not like Ford where you don't buy an older Taurus, you avoid F150's with the 5.4 V8, the new Escape has all kinds of problems,you don't buy an automatic equipped Fiesta or Focus, but the manual transmission version is a great car.
My mom was given a 1994 Taurus for free by her friend, she drives it daily because she treats her Acura like I treat my BMW (garage queen).
My brother's colleague who has a S Class said, "What the **** are you talking about? Nobody buys a car anymore, because nobody keeps it more than 3 years." He tells this guy well my brother still drives a 1998 Nissan that he bought new. Apparently he said well your brother is not normal and walked away? hahahahahahaha
I woulda said if we could all put up with boring cars, we'd all drive Camrys and Accords, and be done with it. But why isn't the road overrun with these two cars? The only monkey wrench in that statement is the Camry looks like it got more exciting. The road does seem overrun with CR-Vs, though. At one point this morning, I was surrounded by 5, very scary....(2 were the first gen, 2 were the newest, and 1 was the 2005'ish one)