Johnhav430

Is there research showing that folks actually shop for a live axle, or is it more they don't know anything about it.....

FORD states the rear indie is a benefit, not a detriment

https://www.lincoln.com/luxury-suvs/...s/performance/

I would have guessed suburban had a higher towing capacity as a result, but again it loses to FORD. JMO the GM products are dated or have "some" dated technology even in new products, which is why I said they're laid back. They could beat FORD if they wanted to, they don't want to.

The fact that a 2018 Enclave has less torque than a 2009, I suppose most are willing to overlook. But a 2018 should have more torque and use less fuel than a 2009, that would simply be progress...

SW17LS

I don’t think power on a vehicle such as the Buick Enclave really matters. I’ve done some research into them since this thread piqued my interest and I couldn’t tell you what sort of power it has. I didn’t care enough to even look or remember if I saw.

For many of the GM truck faithful the live axle is a plus.

Toys4RJill

They just changed the tuning of the engine. Peak torque comes in lower and horsepower peaks higher. Plus, it looks like they upgraded the AWD mechanicals.

mmarshall

A moot point at best....even with research. Live axles, on new vehicles, are pretty much extinct now, except for traditional pickup trucks (minus the Honda Ridgeline) and a few truck-based SUVs.

Yes, an IRS will usually help with road manners (ride/handling), but a traditional live axle has a number of other benefits. And, on the Dodge Ram, the chassis-engineers have managed to come up with good road manners plus the live axle.


I'm with you on that one....that does look a little strange. Perhaps Ford is simply being less-cautious in its ratings, in order to attract more customers...hard to say. If I had to make a bet, though, if all else were equal (tow loads, engine power, road-condition/bumps, etc...), and assuming no defects in assembly or design, I'd put my money on a traditional live axle being more durable under the same conditions.

Well, I'd say there's progress. I can't speak for the Enclave because I don't have one, but I do have the FWD 3.6L powertrain in my new Lacrosse, and its gas mileage, so far, even during break-in, has been excellent for a vehicle of that size and power. It actually uses (slightly) less fuel than the smaller, lighter Verano I had with a N/A 2.4L....perhaps also because of the Verano's solid construction and older sound-insulation, which added weight.

SW17LS

Of course Ford is going to say their setup is the best. Why wouldn’t they?

I can tell you for sure though that there there are plenty of truck buyers who are old school and they want the live axle. They believe it’s more of a “real truck”. If Ford goes one way why does it not make sense GM would go the other way to capture those buyers turned off by the IRS in the Ford?

mmarshall

Not only that, but even though the Mustang shed its live-axle a few years ago, Ford still uses one in the F-150...a classic work-truck. That tells you something.

Sulu

Ford's work trucks, like its pickup trucks, still use the live rear axle.

It is its passenger SUVs, like the Lincoln Navigator, that use the independent rear suspension. For a passenger truck, the IRS has its benefits: It is more comfortable and with the fixed rear differential, the rear floor can be lower, allowing for more room in the 3rd row.

SW17LS

But even so, there are buyers who choose the GM SUVs because of the live rear axle.

Johnhav430

Of course, they are about payload, not ride comfort.....a FWD based SUV or crossover is about comfort....my cousin's hubby's pickup had a 17,500 tow capacity and it wasn't even a dually. Pretty sure that is a leaf spring setup....that vehicle was for work. At non work he drove some classic German car like a 635 or 944 Turbo or various E's....

mmarshall

Yes, I know that the Expedition and Navigator use IRS. So does the Enclave.....the thread topic. I think the main reason GM uses a beam-axle on its big SUVs (besides the issues already discussed in this thread) is that it makes it easier to build both them (if and where applicable) in the same plant as the full-size pickups.

mmarshall

The old axiom that trucks have to have leaf rear springs for utility-work is (now) a little out of date. The latest Dodge Ram 1500s and 2500s use an all-coil set-up, have much better road manners and comfort, and yet still keep high tow/payload ratings.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

ok since the enclave doesn't have a live axle, there's no need for us to discuss it further, or trucks.

mmarshall

Well, like the vast majority of today's SUVs, the Enclave is unibody crossover...none of them (that I know of) have a true live axle. The only Buick SUV ever done with a live rear axle was the Rainier, which was essentially a Chevy Trail-Blazer clone with some extra sound insulation.

Toys4RJill

Got the chance to sit in the new Enclave.
Thoughts are mixed. Overall, I like the Buick design theme inside, but the interior does not have same level of quality or fit and finish as a Lacrosse.

Good stuff:
Nice style
Avenir looks like a nice package
Good Buick design theme
Good Year tires with a very long treadwear rating
Nice illuminating vanity mirrors


Bad stuff:
Lots of cheap feeling light materials
Hard plastic on the seat cushion surrounding
No adjustments for seat belts in the front (cost cutting as the previous model had it)
Faux wood on $54K vehicle is unacceptable
The dumbest and absolute worst sunroof sliding shade ever
So so leather or faux leather seats in an otherwise expensive price point
No color Tri sheild Buick emblem
I could probably go on and on as this new vehicle did not feel very well built.

Overall, it's ok. The Lexus RX is clearly a nicer more luxurious vehicle. It's absolutely clear GM figured ways to cost cut this new Enclave.

Note, I didn't drive it as we were just looking at the cars in the back lot killing time today. I did not feel like dealing with the sales staff.

mmarshall

I'll respect your opinion, but it's interesting you would say that. The new Lacrosse and new Enclave actually use a number of the same parts inside.

Of course, the Lacrosse, though, does not (yet) have the Enclave's Avenir trim-option....so it's missing some things like the Avenir's real-wood steering wheel.

Like I just mentioned, the Avenir's steering wheel is genuine polished wood (Mahogany), though it is unclear if the trim piece that runs across the lower-dash is real wood or not. That lower-dash wood (wood-tone?) trim-piece, though, has a clever feature...it gradually changes color from wood to black as it approaches the adjacent black-trim on the center-dash.

I'll admit, though, that the wood-steering wheel on the Lexus ES350 one-ups that of the Buick. The ES350 has polished-wood sections on both top and bottom...the Buick's Avenir wheel, only on top, for cost-cutting.

According to the Enclave's web-site, ALL Essence and up versions come with real leather seats. Buick would not dare offer the Avenir-level trim without leather.....even with cost-cutting, that would be an insult to people's intelligence.

(I, myself, though, like the soft, silky velour-cloth and tufting that upper-level Buicks used decades ago)

No American-market Buick (yet) has that feature on the steering wheel, even though they have switched to the tri-color on the grille and trunk-lid.........Chinese versions, I think, also have it inside.

Now you're beginning to see what I've been saying, here on Car Chat, for the last several years......that the smaller, Opel-sourced Buicks (Verano, Cascada, Regal, Encore) are noticeably more solid in their feel (and, perhaps, reliability) than the larger, American-based ones. I didn't care, though. I liked the silky way that the Lacrosse drives, and was willing to, if necessary, sacrifice a little build-quality.