Next Gen Lexus ES Spy shots !
08-08-17, 02:12 PM
#61
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by arentz07
Of course, the ES isn't a valid replacement for the GS... That's not what I was saying at all. But, would it be bad to have an F Sport, or at least better-handling ES? Not at all.
08-08-17, 04:39 PM
#62
If the new engines didnt output as much horsepower as the competition but offered class leading or at least competetive fuel economy that may not necessarily be a bad thing. The current engine lineup does neither.
08-08-17, 05:24 PM
#63
Pole Position
Toyota is really milking high and dry here and considering the fact the new ES will be available in Germany for the first time I wonder what are they going to put inside of it cause 2.5 or current Russian 2.0 are not going to cut it in midsize segment. I assume there would be 2.0T in it together with 2.5H somewhere down the way.
08-08-17, 05:52 PM
#64
Lexus Champion
GS needs to evolve into a four door coupe panamera/CLS competitor. Although at that point why not just have a rwd sedan based on the same platform.
Clearly they're not going to kill the ES which would be the sensible thing.
08-08-17, 06:46 PM
#65
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
ES and GS can't co-exist, one makes the other pointless.
GS needs to evolve into a four door coupe panamera/CLS competitor. Although at that point why not just have a rwd sedan based on the same platform.
Clearly they're not going to kill the ES which would be the sensible thing.
GS needs to evolve into a four door coupe panamera/CLS competitor. Although at that point why not just have a rwd sedan based on the same platform.
Clearly they're not going to kill the ES which would be the sensible thing.
08-08-17, 07:04 PM
#66
Lexus Fanatic
Of course, yes, ALL sedan sales are down some as folks have shifted to SUVs, and the ES has not escaped that trend, either.....but it still is extremely popular by sedan standards.
ES and GS can't co-exist, one makes the other pointless.
Last edited by mmarshall; 08-08-17 at 07:11 PM.
08-08-17, 07:06 PM
#67
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That new 2.5 is a stone age engine. It should have hit the market 5 years ago when Mazda SkyActive did because that's exactly what it is, it's Toyotas own SkyActive engine. It has more horsepower but same amount of torque and better claimed fuel efficiency by 1mpg in city and 4mpg on highway. Next SkyActive-X will have city mpg in low 30s.
Toyota is really milking high and dry here and considering the fact the new ES will be available in Germany for the first time I wonder what are they going to put inside of it cause 2.5 or current Russian 2.0 are not going to cut it in midsize segment. I assume there would be 2.0T in it together with 2.5H somewhere down the way.
Toyota is really milking high and dry here and considering the fact the new ES will be available in Germany for the first time I wonder what are they going to put inside of it cause 2.5 or current Russian 2.0 are not going to cut it in midsize segment. I assume there would be 2.0T in it together with 2.5H somewhere down the way.
)
08-08-17, 08:29 PM
#69
Lexus Fanatic
I'd be in that small percentage...though I admit the GS has a better interior. But the GS's RWD (and higher price) has little attraction for me...it's too sport-oriented for my tastes.
08-08-17, 08:46 PM
#70
Lexus Champion
Sensible thing? You gotta be kidding. The ES sells like hotcakes...particularly among the blue-hair crowd. Probably half of the retired people I regularly swim with at the indoor red-center pool own them...and 25% of them Buick Lacrosses LOL.
Of course, yes, ALL sedan sales are down some as folks have shifted to SUVs, and the ES has not escaped that trend, either.....but it still is extremely popular by sedan standards.
As far as the ES and GS co-existing, I see it as apples and oranges. Different platforms, completely different drivetrains, and different clientele. One is clearly a cruiser...the other, a (borderline) bruiser.
Of course, yes, ALL sedan sales are down some as folks have shifted to SUVs, and the ES has not escaped that trend, either.....but it still is extremely popular by sedan standards.
As far as the ES and GS co-existing, I see it as apples and oranges. Different platforms, completely different drivetrains, and different clientele. One is clearly a cruiser...the other, a (borderline) bruiser.
RWD vs FWD and performance don't matter.
08-09-17, 12:26 AM
#71
Pole Position
You can't let facts get in the way of their false narrative.
Last edited by natnut; 08-09-17 at 01:05 AM.
08-09-17, 12:41 AM
#72
Pole Position
The ES/GS conundrum :
the ES is too much of a money maker to let go but it brings down the brand prestige due to its humble FWD Camry roots. It succeeds because it offers a luxury badge, roominess and comfort for relative bargain compared to the German competition.
the GS offers the RWD driving dynamics and prestige and actually handles better than the German competition but fails because it is half size smaller than the Eclass/5 series/A6 in interior space and most midsize luxury sport sedan sales are largely driven by utility and comfort despite what the marketing would have you believe. It is fighting a sales battle on 2 fronts : One against the Germans who win on badge snob factor and its price is too close to the Germans, another against its badge-mate, the ES who wins on utility and price.
The solution :
lies in further differentiating the ES and the GS. Lexus should give up any hopes of the GS being a mass market sales magnet and just purely push the GS into a niche 4 door Grancoupe market.
Price the GS closer to a CLS/6 GC/A7, offer class leading dynamics and power and LC level styling, work out ways to cut down on material costs by offering cheaper construction compared to the LC but somehow have almost the same levels of perceived build quality and expensiveness especially for the interior, rebrand the GS as a more affordable 4 door GC version of the LC, stick in the 3.5L 415hp TT LS engine as the base engine and watch the GS blow away the 6 series/CLS/A7 in terms of sales.
the ES is too much of a money maker to let go but it brings down the brand prestige due to its humble FWD Camry roots. It succeeds because it offers a luxury badge, roominess and comfort for relative bargain compared to the German competition.
the GS offers the RWD driving dynamics and prestige and actually handles better than the German competition but fails because it is half size smaller than the Eclass/5 series/A6 in interior space and most midsize luxury sport sedan sales are largely driven by utility and comfort despite what the marketing would have you believe. It is fighting a sales battle on 2 fronts : One against the Germans who win on badge snob factor and its price is too close to the Germans, another against its badge-mate, the ES who wins on utility and price.
The solution :
lies in further differentiating the ES and the GS. Lexus should give up any hopes of the GS being a mass market sales magnet and just purely push the GS into a niche 4 door Grancoupe market.
Price the GS closer to a CLS/6 GC/A7, offer class leading dynamics and power and LC level styling, work out ways to cut down on material costs by offering cheaper construction compared to the LC but somehow have almost the same levels of perceived build quality and expensiveness especially for the interior, rebrand the GS as a more affordable 4 door GC version of the LC, stick in the 3.5L 415hp TT LS engine as the base engine and watch the GS blow away the 6 series/CLS/A7 in terms of sales.
Last edited by natnut; 08-09-17 at 12:46 AM.
08-09-17, 01:52 AM
#73
Lexus Test Driver
Natnut has it right, the ES should be the value sales leader while the GS should be a niche model. The ES is a Lexus for people who want comfort and reliability at a lower price. Not everyone wants or needs RWD, AWD or sporty handling.
The Toyota Aristo was a Gran Coupe-like design that the current GS should have followed. Lexus tried turning the GS into a BMW 5-series clone but that hasn't done wonders for worldwide sales. China has the biggest global market for the long-wheelbase 5 and most people there buy it for badge and snob appeal, not for the handling. Most people wouldn't know which axle had the driven wheels. The imported ES sells well in that market because it's big, quiet, relatively luxurious and it's cheaper than locally-assembled A6s and 5-series.
The Toyota Aristo was a Gran Coupe-like design that the current GS should have followed. Lexus tried turning the GS into a BMW 5-series clone but that hasn't done wonders for worldwide sales. China has the biggest global market for the long-wheelbase 5 and most people there buy it for badge and snob appeal, not for the handling. Most people wouldn't know which axle had the driven wheels. The imported ES sells well in that market because it's big, quiet, relatively luxurious and it's cheaper than locally-assembled A6s and 5-series.
08-09-17, 05:50 AM
#74
Lexus Test Driver
The ES/GS conundrum :
the ES is too much of a money maker to let go but it brings down the brand prestige due to its humble FWD Camry roots. It succeeds because it offers a luxury badge, roominess and comfort for relative bargain compared to the German competition.
the GS offers the RWD driving dynamics and prestige and actually handles better than the German competition but fails because it is half size smaller than the Eclass/5 series/A6 in interior space and most midsize luxury sport sedan sales are largely driven by utility and comfort despite what the marketing would have you believe. It is fighting a sales battle on 2 fronts : One against the Germans who win on badge snob factor and its price is too close to the Germans, another against its badge-mate, the ES who wins on utility and price.
The solution :
lies in further differentiating the ES and the GS. Lexus should give up any hopes of the GS being a mass market sales magnet and just purely push the GS into a niche 4 door Grancoupe market.
Price the GS closer to a CLS/6 GC/A7, offer class leading dynamics and power and LC level styling, work out ways to cut down on material costs by offering cheaper construction compared to the LC but somehow have almost the same levels of perceived build quality and expensiveness especially for the interior, rebrand the GS as a more affordable 4 door GC version of the LC, stick in the 3.5L 415hp TT LS engine as the base engine and watch the GS blow away the 6 series/CLS/A7 in terms of sales.
the ES is too much of a money maker to let go but it brings down the brand prestige due to its humble FWD Camry roots. It succeeds because it offers a luxury badge, roominess and comfort for relative bargain compared to the German competition.
the GS offers the RWD driving dynamics and prestige and actually handles better than the German competition but fails because it is half size smaller than the Eclass/5 series/A6 in interior space and most midsize luxury sport sedan sales are largely driven by utility and comfort despite what the marketing would have you believe. It is fighting a sales battle on 2 fronts : One against the Germans who win on badge snob factor and its price is too close to the Germans, another against its badge-mate, the ES who wins on utility and price.
The solution :
lies in further differentiating the ES and the GS. Lexus should give up any hopes of the GS being a mass market sales magnet and just purely push the GS into a niche 4 door Grancoupe market.
Price the GS closer to a CLS/6 GC/A7, offer class leading dynamics and power and LC level styling, work out ways to cut down on material costs by offering cheaper construction compared to the LC but somehow have almost the same levels of perceived build quality and expensiveness especially for the interior, rebrand the GS as a more affordable 4 door GC version of the LC, stick in the 3.5L 415hp TT LS engine as the base engine and watch the GS blow away the 6 series/CLS/A7 in terms of sales.
GranCoupes dont appeal to families which most midsize sedans are purchased by.
Also most GranCoupe buyers are more attached to looks and brand appeal than the typical midsize sedan buyer; this puts GS to a clear disadvantage.
Its crazy to me that Hyundai who 10 years ago wasnt even in the segment was able to produce a midsize sedan in the Genesis G80 that is superior to the GS in almost everyway and costs way less. The sales #s are good also.
You don't see them rebadging a Sonata.....
08-09-17, 06:55 AM
#75
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
The ES/GS conundrum :
the ES is too much of a money maker to let go but it brings down the brand prestige due to its humble FWD Camry roots. It succeeds because it offers a luxury badge, roominess and comfort for relative bargain compared to the German competition.
the GS offers the RWD driving dynamics and prestige and actually handles better than the German competition but fails because it is half size smaller than the Eclass/5 series/A6 in interior space and most midsize luxury sport sedan sales are largely driven by utility and comfort despite what the marketing would have you believe. It is fighting a sales battle on 2 fronts : One against the Germans who win on badge snob factor and its price is too close to the Germans, another against its badge-mate, the ES who wins on utility and price.
The solution :
lies in further differentiating the ES and the GS. Lexus should give up any hopes of the GS being a mass market sales magnet and just purely push the GS into a niche 4 door Grancoupe market.
Price the GS closer to a CLS/6 GC/A7, offer class leading dynamics and power and LC level styling, work out ways to cut down on material costs by offering cheaper construction compared to the LC but somehow have almost the same levels of perceived build quality and expensiveness especially for the interior, rebrand the GS as a more affordable 4 door GC version of the LC, stick in the 3.5L 415hp TT LS engine as the base engine and watch the GS blow away the 6 series/CLS/A7 in terms of sales.
the ES is too much of a money maker to let go but it brings down the brand prestige due to its humble FWD Camry roots. It succeeds because it offers a luxury badge, roominess and comfort for relative bargain compared to the German competition.
the GS offers the RWD driving dynamics and prestige and actually handles better than the German competition but fails because it is half size smaller than the Eclass/5 series/A6 in interior space and most midsize luxury sport sedan sales are largely driven by utility and comfort despite what the marketing would have you believe. It is fighting a sales battle on 2 fronts : One against the Germans who win on badge snob factor and its price is too close to the Germans, another against its badge-mate, the ES who wins on utility and price.
The solution :
lies in further differentiating the ES and the GS. Lexus should give up any hopes of the GS being a mass market sales magnet and just purely push the GS into a niche 4 door Grancoupe market.
Price the GS closer to a CLS/6 GC/A7, offer class leading dynamics and power and LC level styling, work out ways to cut down on material costs by offering cheaper construction compared to the LC but somehow have almost the same levels of perceived build quality and expensiveness especially for the interior, rebrand the GS as a more affordable 4 door GC version of the LC, stick in the 3.5L 415hp TT LS engine as the base engine and watch the GS blow away the 6 series/CLS/A7 in terms of sales.
es outsold gs 10:1 last month.
