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You forget : the future GS will be sharing and amortizing development costs with the 5LS and LC as all 3 are based on Lexus GA-L platform. Also 5GS will share platform with JDM RWD Toyota Crown but will be styled as Grancoupe and have sportier suspension and upgraded chassis and probably have a higher tier base engine. Peteharvey made similar points about GS vis a vis Toyota Crown.
Thinking globally :
Toyota Crown targets 5 series/E class/A6 as the luxury midsize family hauler except that role will taken over by the new ES in North America.
Lexus GS, " based on" the high volume selling Crown platform can now be freed to pursue stylishness and sportiness while ES and Crown act as the midsize volume sellers in US and Japan respectively.
1. I recall that the current Crown uses the platform, or minimally the suspension from the 3GS and not the 4GS....it does not have the separated springs and shocks like the 4GS.
2. If the 5GS and 5LS will share the same platform a la 5/7 series, the what platform will the 4IS use? Move to fwd and share with ES?
3. A grand coupe idea a la BMW 4 series would interest me. I too wonder if the LS would spearhead a new design language in the grand coupe style for other Lexus models.
4. Multi stage hybrid it seems, is still very far behind in performance stakes if the LC500h tests are accurate.
5. in turbo power, hybrid power or V8 power, Lexus performance seems to average 1 sec behind most rivals to the usual benchmarks, even with the LC as the top performance model. I wonder if it's deliberate, or lack of knowhow?
6. Lexus doesn't seem to release exciting news as regularly as other rivals...either they have something big under their sleeve or are they in a rut? Maybe they did not expect the European grasp of EV and Plug in hybrid technology?
I agree. Lexus, all of the current models, are slow.
They keep complaining that nothing but old people drive Lexus. Well that's a big reason why. Which is fine if that's all they want.
They obviously are trying very hard in the looks department to look edgier, sportier, "younger," but they're forgetting an equally important element: their grandpa engines.
Even their latest dynamic-force engines will probably crawl based on the last few engines just recently released. I don't think it's deliberate more so than a lack of know how.
I agree. Lexus, all of the current models, are slow.
They keep complaining that nothing but old people drive Lexus. Well that's a big reason why. Which is fine if that's all they want.
They obviously are trying very hard in the looks department to look edgier, sportier, "younger," but they're forgetting an equally important element: their grandpa engines.
Even their latest dynamic-force engines will probably crawl based on the last few engines just recently released. I don't think it's deliberate more so than a lack of know how.
The only Dynamic force engine they have released so far is the 2.5 4 cyl in the new Camry which has class leading output and efficiency figures
In the same vein, I wonder if conceptually, Lexus would view the 5GS as the LC Grancoupe and keep the radical LC styling but adapted to 4 doors for the GS.
In that case that really is not a GS but LC Grancoupe which would cost over $100k.
GS was a midsize sport sedan aimed at 5series and Eclass.
The reason it failed is Lexus/Toyota is too greedy. ES originally was a stop gap product bec Lexus didn't have midsize sedan when the brand first came out. But they saw how easy it is to modify Camry into ES and make ton of cash.
Instead they should of put that R&D into GS line and discontinued ES or made it what the HS/CT models were.
If they had a viable GS line, that would of spawned a RWD based sporty SUV to compete with X5, GLE, RR Sport etc.; in addition to coupes and grancoupes based on that platform.
Instead we have a GS model that dealers can't move bec of the ES and you have a brand in Lexus that continues its failure in selling any models not based on FWD Toyotas.
1. I recall that the current Crown uses the platform, or minimally the suspension from the 3GS and not the 4GS....it does not have the separated springs and shocks like the 4GS.
2. If the 5GS and 5LS will share the same platform a la 5/7 series, the what platform will the 4IS use? Move to fwd and share with ES?
3. A grand coupe idea a la BMW 4 series would interest me. I too wonder if the LS would spearhead a new design language in the grand coupe style for other Lexus models.
4. Multi stage hybrid it seems, is still very far behind in performance stakes if the LC500h tests are accurate. https://youtu.be/CCetnkb9-6c
5. in turbo power, hybrid power or V8 power, Lexus performance seems to average 1 sec behind most rivals to the usual benchmarks, even with the LC as the top performance model. I wonder if it's deliberate, or lack of knowhow?
6. Lexus doesn't seem to release exciting news as regularly as other rivals...either they have something big under their sleeve or are they in a rut? Maybe they did not expect the European grasp of EV and Plug in hybrid technology?
When we read the press, we are often led to believe that the US firepower is markedly superior to that of the Russians and the Chinese.
However, in truth we humans are remarkably competitive, and remarkably similar.
The Russians and Chinese together with their SU-35's and J-10's have enough firepower to counter the US and its allies - leaving nothing but dust left on this planet.
In the same way, in the old days, photographers used to engage in great Canikon wars - Canon is better? No, Nikon is better? No, Canon is better? No, Nikon is better.
Today, photographers have matured, and they now realize that Canon and Nikon are both equally good, but in different ways.
Ditto the automotive industry.
The actual platform isn't really the same, but it uses the same basic core architecture and mounting points, so that different components can be used, and multiple different models can be assembled on the same factory line.
Before 1991, the Toyota Crown used to use the traditional "ladder" type chassis, similar to a bicycle.
However, by 1991 the Toyota Crown and its sporty sibling the Toyota Aristo/Lexus GS used a monocoque skin-stressed type chassis similar to an egg shell; this was called Toyota's N Platform, and it was used in the:
1) Toyota Altezza/Lexus IS
2) Toyota Mark II/X [nee Cressida for export markets]; the Mark Series is a special size of motor vehicle which is similar to the Nissan Skyline, and slots between the IS and GS for size so that it fits just under the Japanese 4.7 m long by 1.7 m wide tax bracket law, that was abolished by 1989.
3) Toyota Crown/Aristo/Lexus GS
4) Toyota Celsior/Lexus LS.
By around 2012, Toyota released the New N Platform used on the 4GS, 3IS and 1RC.
However, the Toyota's New N platform was short lived, because the next generation 5LS has moved onto the new TNGA platforms available in two variants:
1) GA-K for FWD-based applications used by the new Camry and forthcoming 7ES etc, and the
2) GA-L for RWD-based applications eg the new LC and 5LS etc.
It's the same story with the Germans.
Since around 2007, Audi has its MLB longitudinal mounted engine platform used in their A4/A5, A6/A7, and A8.
VW also has the MQB transverse mounted engine platform used in their Polo, Golf and Passats etc.
BMW's not going to be outdone.
In 2015, the current generation 7 Series is using BMW's new global architecture platform called the OKL platform.
The all new 5 Series released in 2017 is also using BMW's OKL platform.
The forthcoming 2019-26 3 Series is also expected to use BMW's OKL global architecture platform.
BMW also has an UKL platform for cheap FWD-based applications; "UKL" for untere klasse meaning lower class.
"O" stands for obere meaning upper.
It's just like Canikon and the F-22 Raptor/F-35 Lightning - the Russian Sukhoi SU-35 and Chinese Chengdu J-10 are neck and neck - they are all equally good and devastating, but in different ways...
TMC doesn't just engineer and manufacture cars - they actually engineer and manufacture firstly and fore mostly for "their" own market.
That's why the Prius hybrid is Japan's best selling car in their domestic market with 249,000 units sold last year.
The best selling luxury car in Japan's domestic market is normally the Toyota Crown [similar to Lexus GS] which sold 39,000 units in Japan last year.
However, last year was an exception, in that the Toyota Harrier [similar to Lexus RX] upset the Toyota Crown to sell 41,000 units in the Japanese domestic market.
Outside of Japan, the second biggest market for TMC is the United States.
We must remember that while the Japanese domestic market has very much gone hybrid, in the US market, gasoline is relatively cheap, hence TMC is a late mover into small capacity turbos.
The TMC 2.0 turbo is here.
The 3.5L V6 TT is coming.
There will be a 4.0 V8 TT in time.
It is not natural for the Japanese to release products quickly onto the market, at the cost of refinement, reliability and durability.
On the other hand, the Europeans are different.
Europe is a tiny continent with a big population, such that Europe had to have diesels and small capacity turbos long ago.
Now, even Europe realizes that the diesel also has carcinogenic particulate [dust particle] emissions, such that even Europe is moving into hybrids and electrification.
Once again, it's not a case of TMC being better or worse, but different...
In that case that really is not a GS but LC Grancoupe which would cost over $100k.
GS was a midsize sport sedan aimed at 5series and Eclass.
The reason it failed is Lexus/Toyota is too greedy. ES originally was a stop gap product bec Lexus didn't have midsize sedan when the brand first came out. But they saw how easy it is to modify Camry into ES and make ton of cash.
Instead they should of put that R&D into GS line and discontinued ES or made it what the HS/CT models were.
If they had a viable GS line, that would of spawned a RWD based sporty SUV to compete with X5, GLE, RR Sport etc.; in addition to coupes and grancoupes based on that platform.
Instead we have a GS model that dealers can't move bec of the ES and you have a brand in Lexus that continues its failure in selling any models not based on FWD Toyotas.
The ES and RX is a formula that has worked remarkably well for TMC.
Where the BMW 3 Series was once America's biggest selling luxury motor vehicle, today the Lexus RX is presently America's biggest selling luxury vehicle with some 110,000 units/year.
Last year, combined sales of the aging duo of ES and GS still yielded over 72,000 units, while E Class only sold 50,000 units, with 5 Series on just 32,000 units, and A6 on 18,000 units.
Ultimately, sales is there to make money, and money is best measured not by annual profits, but by equity - the difference between assets and liabilities.
For example, a medical specialist may post a $1 million loss this year, however overall, he may still have $30 million dollars in property.
Thus, while BMW AG only has $55 billion dollars in equity, Daimler AG has $63 billion dollars, while TMC has $155 billion in equity.
This is despite EEC European Economic Community's protection of the European motor industry through tariffs and quotas applied to Japanese motor vehicles to restrict the sale of Japanese motor vehicles in the continent of Europe.
Without these special tariffs and quotas restricting the sale of Japanese motor vehicles in Europe, the European motor vehicle industry would be literally annihilated.
For example, without similar economic market protection, just look at what Korean Samsung is presently doing to Japanese Sony...
I kind of guessed Lexus wouldn't want to cancel the ES in favor of the RWD GS, especially after investing in ES production in the US recently. I like that they are giving the ES a little bit of the GS DNA, judging by this new car's more compact and sportier look. I still wonder whether they will cancel the GS altogether or reboot it to be more like a CLS/6-series competitor.
I kind of guessed Lexus wouldn't want to cancel the ES in favor of the RWD GS, especially after investing in ES production in the US recently. I like that they are giving the ES a little bit of the GS DNA, judging by this new car's more compact and sportier look. I still wonder whether they will cancel the GS altogether or reboot it to be more like a CLS/6-series competitor.
If it's based on the Camry platform, almost nothing you can do will make it feel good dynamically without sacrifice ride quality. The platform wasn't developed with handling as it's primary concern. Killing the GS will kill all hopes of competing with BMW and Mercedes and will probably stop attracting the younger buyers which Lexus has been so desperately trying to win.
Unless the rumors were true, the GS gets canceled and the new ES will take over. Based on the images so far, we can clearly see that ES will have both, an F-Sport and the base models. Who knows what Lexus strategy is at this point. The fact that they are testing the car against the top 2 German mid size sedans is alarming.
They may do something crazy like, cancel the GS350 and GS200t, and have an ES fill those gaps instead. GS-F and GS450h may be the only cars left in the GS lineup, which would make it more unique.
That's a weird move, but it does seem like car cos. for a long time have been pushing their lower lines. Look at the BMW 320, A3, whatever that tiny MB is called. In the 90's when they tried to do that, they failed miserably (I remember the 318ti).
If it's based on the Camry platform, almost nothing you can do will make it feel good dynamically without sacrifice ride quality. The platform wasn't developed with handling as it's primary concern. Killing the GS will kill all hopes of competing with BMW and Mercedes and will probably stop attracting the younger buyers which Lexus has been so desperately trying to win.
The ES platform will be based on the new TNGA platform, which has a lower center of gravity and improved driving dynamics.
Here's my guess on the shape of the headlights and tailights:
---
The rear will have a chrome band connecting the tops of the taillights.
There is possibly an LED strip at the top of the taillights.
The triple LED taillights have a "3D" layered effect, much like the LC and LS.
The headlights have a minimized, integrated DRL swoosh like the LS.
There is also a notch on the headlight next to the spindle grille.
In that case that really is not a GS but LC Grancoupe which would cost over $100k.
GS was a midsize sport sedan aimed at 5series and Eclass.
The reason it failed is Lexus/Toyota is too greedy. ES originally was a stop gap product bec Lexus didn't have midsize sedan when the brand first came out. But they saw how easy it is to modify Camry into ES and make ton of cash.
Instead they should of put that R&D into GS line and discontinued ES or made it what the HS/CT models were.
If they had a viable GS line, that would of spawned a RWD based sporty SUV to compete with X5, GLE, RR Sport etc.; in addition to coupes and grancoupes based on that platform.
Instead we have a GS model that dealers can't move bec of the ES and you have a brand in Lexus that continues its failure in selling any models not based on FWD Toyotas.
I have been saying this for years, and honestly I thought lexus lost their way. However the current GS was benchmarked against the finest when it came out, it took names, ranked #1 above the porty F10 5 series. Did anyone buy them....not really. Road hugging manners feel etc is not something Lexus buyers are concerned about, heck I see NX F sport (USDM buyers) brag about how amazing the vehicle feels compared to the non F sport NX stating that this has adaptive suspension...factoid both vehicles dont have adaptive suspension its just an appearance pack. But hey...
Lexus should embrace appearance packages, do their current shin dig....aka keep doing what their doing. Its not hurting them in any way
The ES platform will be based on the new TNGA platform, which has a lower center of gravity and improved driving dynamics.
Here's my guess on the shape of the headlights and tailights:
---
The rear will have a chrome band connecting the tops of the taillights.
There is possibly an LED strip at the top of the taillights.
The triple LED taillights have a "3D" layered effect, much like the LC and LS.
The headlights have a minimized, integrated DRL swoosh like the LS.
There is also a notch on the headlight next to the spindle grille.
Somone really liked their last gen honda accord to straight badge engineer that
If it's based on the Camry platform, almost nothing you can do will make it feel good dynamically without sacrifice ride quality. The platform wasn't developed with handling as it's primary concern. Killing the GS will kill all hopes of competing with BMW and Mercedes and will probably stop attracting the younger buyers which Lexus has been so desperately trying to win.
If it has an independent rear suspension like the new Camry, combined with improved rigidity, it'll probably ride just as well as the current ES while being less upset on bumpy roads. Doesn't seem like a long shot to think they could improve both ride quality and handling.
If it has an independent rear suspension like the new Camry, combined with improved rigidity, it'll probably ride just as well as the current ES while being less upset on bumpy roads. Doesn't seem like a long shot to think they could improve both ride quality and handling.
But it won't be anything as good as its competition (E class, 5 series, etc) or even the current GS.
But it won't be anything as good as its competition (E class, 5 series, etc) or even the current GS.
Sounds like a bad plan to me.
Of course, the ES isn't a valid replacement for the GS... That's not what I was saying at all. But, would it be bad to have an F Sport, or at least better-handling ES? Not at all.
08-05-17, 07:41 AM
