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I'm one of these people.
I hear about german unreliability, but don't really know the details.
Now, I'm open to buying german, but it's always the ripoff pricing that holds me back.
I've always thought, as long as the engine runs without mechanical failure, then the car is pretty reliable. I bet there is rarely a case of total mechanical failure in german cars. Manufacturers test their cars hard these days. Millions of miles on the 'ring and death valley.
A random dashboard light doesn't mean total electronics failure. It's just an annoyance.
My 2 lexus .... Had to replace the steering shaft for $1000. Waterpump for $1000. both well before hitting 100k. It's now 14+ years old.
My GS blew its waterpump at 45k. This time I went to a private mechanic for $400.
Are my cars reliable? I dunno
Rip off pricing can be solved by the huge discounts they have during the sale events. 3 year ago, a family member was able to get a MB C300 for 8K off MSRP and myself got 7K off the new E class last year when they were just 6 months new to market. I have never been able to get that much off from Lexus or any other brand.
Didn't read the entire thread but here is my take so far.
I'm going on 13,000 miles on now with a 2016 535i and love the car. no issues at all.
Always been a Toyota and Honda guy and had a 88 Celica GT-S for 10 years, 97 Accord 15 Years, and my 2000 GS400 for 17 Years (170k on the clock) when I sold it. All those cars were solid with very minor to little maintenance issues at all.
Got rid of the GS last year because....well it needed new bushings all around and I just didn't see that happening... (this was because the car was lowered for last 16+ years on bilstein shocks and eibach springs. Which was to get rid of the stock "Cadillac/BOAT" ride and make the steering more responsive) Granted the new GS is lovely and steering resonse and car ride is much improved over my 2000 GS. I can't speak for long term reliablity but my first year with the 535i has been complete stress free. Drives like a gem. Quite and very responsive. I have the M package on runflat 19". I most likely will only keep this one for the three year lease and might try to get into an M4 or M3. I don't think BMW is more reliable than a Lexus long term but for first 60K miles.... I don't anticipate any issues at all on the BMW. I think it also matters what model you are getting i remember the x5 had a lot of issues. mine was last year of the F10 the new 5 series G30 is reporting some noisy cabins and squeeks and ratles, first year cars have more issues. Old German cars can get pricy to maintain.
The Europeans are "generally" better at styling, while the Japanese play it safe.
Everyone including the Europeans, Germans and Japanese have their ups and down, and good and bad days with styling.
As a few people mentioned previously, the Europeans are competitive and like to be fast and first onto the market.
Meanwhile, the Japanese personality pays more attention to detail and refinement, such that the product is developed more thoroughly, with more long term testing before it is released onto the market.
There are countries in Europe that actually penalize old motor vehicles, and this further encourages the Europeans not to pay too much attention to longevity, especially after the warranty period.
Not so much that one is better than the other, but more about two different personalities and two different schools of thought.
Speed and refinement are compromizes, as is daring versus safe, and radical versus conservative; the more we have of one, the less we have of the other.
The Germans are masters of styling and a lot of it stems from function driving form. Underlying all of that is the Bauhaus aesthetic - clean, restrained and understated. They've also been at it for a long, long time on roads that can see speeds over 150 mph. The Japanese motorways might see speeds of 65 mph. So the Japanese decided to test their cars elsewhere and styled their cars elsewhere when they decided to take on the Germans - the results are mixed.
Yes some German cars do look bland to the young man's eye because these cars are styled for the long run, not short term Fast and Furious styling fads. It really comes down to proportion, lines, aerodynamics.
The Germans also engineer their luxury brands for the short run. The Japanese are obsessive about quality control and long term ownership, especially with electrical, engine durability and major subsystems.
If you want the short fling for a about 80K, you buy the German and then the affair will be over. If you want the long term relationship, you find the Japanese luxury brand that you like and stay in a long term relationship.
It doesn't mean that they don't sometimes meet in the middle. Sometimes the Japanese jump out of their cultural skin and decide to do something outrageous or interesting. The Honda S2000, or the Acura NSX. Maybe the boy racer Nissan GTR.
But then the Germans have the BMW Z4 and the stately and beautiful Mercedes S.
Not all German cars are unreliable, but every now and then they do make certain models that are unreliable. My 745 was a total disaster, and my x5 had about 30k worth of warranty repairs. On the other hand my 335, 235, x1 had no issues, and even my x6m so far is hasn't had any trouble.
Not all German cars are unreliable, but every now and then they do make certain models that are unreliable. My 745 was a total disaster, and my x5 had about 30k worth of warranty repairs. On the other hand my 335, 235, x1 had no issues, and even my x6m so far is hasn't had any trouble.
As for BMW, what I noticed has been the Inline 4 and 6 engined cars are fairly reliable, but most V8 or V10 motors have been disasters from a reliability standpoint.
As for BMW, what I noticed has been the Inline 4 and 6 engined cars are fairly reliable, but most V8 or V10 motors have been disasters from a reliability standpoint.
Just don't expect any modern turbo charged DI engines to last past 100k without ridiculous maintenance costs, no matter who the manufacturer is.
I've heard many enthusiasts claim that German cars are over-engineered. I always laugh at this because a manufacturer can over-engineer a fog light, bolt it in, then clamp it down, use multiple clips, screws and fasteners, then use glue and finally staple it in with 150 staples, but if the fog light keeps falling out, what good is the over-engineering?
I've heard many enthusiasts claim that German cars are over-engineered. I always laugh at this because a manufacturer can over-engineer a fog light, bolt it in, then clamp it down, use multiple clips, screws and fasteners, then use glue and finally staple it in with 150 staples, but if the fog light keeps falling out, what good is the over-engineering?
German enthusiasts will of course believe that German cars are over-engineered. The current German cars are solid pieces of engineering, but the reliability is not there. German cars used to be reliable however, especially Mercedes-Benz in the 70s and 80s. Then when Lexus came around, things started to change in the 1990s and then the whole Chrysler ownership happened, things really went downhill.
I am willing to be a 1980's Mercedes could outlive a Lexus LS400.
Now as for current German cars, what they have going for them is fresh design, technology that is new, excess consumption such as hand built V12 engines, and very good initial quality and materials. But the reliability is just poor. But people want the badge.
I would argue that Toyota/Lexus/Honda/Acura are far more over engineered than the Germans.
The thing with German cars, they never look past that 1st or 2nd owner, they never look down the line to see how reliable their car will be after 50k, 75k, 100k, 125k, 150k miles, how much it costs to fix things that break, how easy is it to service their cars, how much do parts cost, they don't give a damn how long their cars last or how much they cost to service once the cars gets some age/miles on them. The Japanese and Americans are WAY WAY WAY far ahead of the Germans in making cars that last over 200k miles with minimal repairs, or at least affordable repairs that aren't more than the value of the damn car.
I kind of think of the German engineering philosophy is that a car should be able to run at its top speed on the autobahn for like lets say a generous 50k miles without any mechanical fault. Now that can be a Benz A class with a 1.5 liter diesel doing 110mph flat out for 50k miles, or an AMG S65 doing 190 to 200mph flat out for 50k miles. Those German cars are made to tolerate some serious abuse, but once they reach a certain age/mileage, they just go to hell and you get a lot of very expensive repair bills. Japanese cars, even Lexus cars, are designed to run for significant mileage and years with very low operating costs.
I think that is the main difference between European brands and Japanese brands, is that the Japanese brands understand that Americans drive A LOT more miles, they design their cars to hold up to how Americans use their cars, not to how Europeans use their cars.
The thing with German cars, they never look past that 1st or 2nd owner, they never look down the line to see how reliable their car will be after 50k, 75k, 100k, 125k, 150k miles, how much it costs to fix things that break, how easy is it to service their cars, how much do parts cost, they don't give a damn how long their cars last or how much they cost to service once the cars gets some age/miles on them. The Japanese and Americans are WAY WAY WAY far ahead of the Germans in making cars that last over 200k miles with minimal repairs, or at least affordable repairs that aren't more than the value of the damn car.
I kind of think of the German engineering philosophy is that a car should be able to run at its top speed on the autobahn for like lets say a generous 50k miles without any mechanical fault. Now that can be a Benz A class with a 1.5 liter diesel doing 110mph flat out for 50k miles, or an AMG S65 doing 190 to 200mph flat out for 50k miles. Those German cars are made to tolerate some serious abuse, but once they reach a certain age/mileage, they just go to hell and you get a lot of very expensive repair bills. Japanese cars, even Lexus cars, are designed to run for significant mileage and years with very low operating costs.
I think that is the main difference between European brands and Japanese brands, is that the Japanese brands understand that Americans drive A LOT more miles, they design their cars to hold up to how Americans use their cars, not to how Europeans use their cars.
There is some truth to the driveability at top speed. For example, BMWs brake service will always be replacing rotors and pads at the same time. My uncle who is a tech in Munich said you guys technically can get away with replacing pads only. We do both because we're doing 160 to 0 mph stops repeatedly, you don't.
Even think about factory cars that come with semi metallic pads that dust like crazy, why? They could have gone the easy route and used ceramic like most Asian and American cars. Performance from the get go. Those pads bite and are not as kind on the rotors either.
German enthusiasts will of course believe that German cars are over-engineered. The current German cars are solid pieces of engineering, but the reliability is not there
The term over-engineered in that context means overly complex. For example VW uses a ridiculously complicated and fail prone PCV system instead of a ball in a tube which works just as well.
I'm going on 13,000 miles on now with a 2016 535i and love the car. no issues at all.
Always been a Toyota and Honda guy and had a 88 Celica GT-S for 10 years, 97 Accord 15 Years, and my 2000 GS400 for 17 Years (170k on the clock) when I sold it. All those cars were solid with very minor to little maintenance issues at all.
Got rid of the GS last year because....well it needed new bushings all around and I just didn't see that happening...
we both had same genre/year of 2gs... loved that car. surprised you got rid of it just for the sake of bushings which can't be that big a repair? even if it's $1000 that's a hell of a lot cheaper than a 3 year lease on a 5 series.
but we do what we do...
07-28-17, 03:31 PM
