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Most people who are buying either the ES or Avalon are probably not cross-shopping the Germans. Most probably couldn't care less about Audi's Quattro system (although it would be nice if the ES offered an AWD system of its own). Most probably don't care about BMW's driving dynamics (some of which are clearly in the past now). And most probably don't care about the ability of Mercedes products to protect the occupants in high-speed crashes.....most ES drivers probably don't drive that fast to start with.
What? I drive as fast as Mercedes-Benz drivers all the time. How much faster can a MB go compared to a Lexus driver if both are keeping up with traffic on city streets and suburban / urban / intercity highways?
My educated guess is that ES drivers are attracted by the value of the ES compared to the Germans. As was said elsewhere, the ES is an entry-level luxury car, but instead of something Corolla-sized like the Audi A3 or Mercedes-Benz CLA, it is now full-sized. It really has no competition.
I would disagree with you. The Avalon is the ES's own in house direct competition. Just like Highland and RX or Land Cruiser and LX, or even 4Runner and GX, the ES competes within its own brand. Factoring out the starting prices, the ES stacks up well with an E class on the lower trim levels. I would assume the same thing about the A6.
The Lincoln MKZ and hybrid is the exact competitor to the ES.
What? I drive as fast as Mercedes-Benz drivers all the time.
I said "most" not all. ES and Avalon drivers, as a group, tend to drive conservatively. So, in fact, do most Buick drivers like me.
How much faster can a MB go compared to a Lexus driver if both are keeping up with traffic on city streets and suburban / urban / intercity highways?
Obviously, most people don't drive at the same speeds around town that they do on freeways.
My educated guess is that ES drivers are attracted by the value of the ES compared to the Germans.
That, I'll agree on. But, even so, the ES is not exactly chump-change....it starts out, with destination/freight, around 40K. That's one (of several) reasons why I chose a Lacrosse instead.
As was said elsewhere, the ES is an entry-level luxury car, but instead of something Corolla-sized like the Audi A3 or Mercedes-Benz CLA, it is now full-sized. It really has no competition.
Though EPA size-ratings go by interior room and not exterior dimensions, I would not consider the ES a full-sizer....even by today's standards. It's at best a (slightly stretched) mid-sizer....about like a Lincoln MKZ.
Though EPA size-ratings go by interior room and not exterior dimensions, I would not consider the ES a full-sizer....even by today's standards. It's at best a (slightly stretched) mid-sizer....about like a Lincoln MKZ.
I would disagree with you. The Avalon is the ES's own in house direct competition. Just like Highland and RX or Land Cruiser and LX, or even 4Runner and GX, the ES competes within its own brand. Factoring out the starting prices, the ES stacks up well with an E class on the lower trim levels. I would assume the same thing about the A6.
The Lincoln MKZ and hybrid is the exact competitor to the ES.
Gotta go with Jill on this one. The Avalon and ES do compete with each other (and the Lacrosse/MKZ/Cadenza/Impala/G80)...though the Impala starts out a little less-expensive than the others, it fully competes in road-manners and refinement. Of course, between the ES and Avalon, it's obvious who the sales-winner is.
I absolutely believe there is segment of ES buyers who cross shop with the Germans. Not so for the Avalon though. Acura as well. And Infiniti.
agree. i can absolutely see someone looking at an e class going to a lexus dealer to check out an es even if they're not inclined to buy it before visiting, but when they realize HOW much less expensive it's going to be and how nice it drives and it's a v6 vs a turbo 4 (although many, like my friend may not even know that last detail at all ), they buy the lexus.
Originally Posted by Sulu
My educated guess is that ES drivers are attracted by the value of the ES compared to the Germans. As was said elsewhere, the ES is an entry-level luxury car, but instead of something Corolla-sized like the Audi A3 or Mercedes-Benz CLA, it is now full-sized. It really has no competition.
agree. ES is a very nice car... entry lux., great value, and does everything it's designed to do well.
Come on. The LS is done on a different platform....longer and RWD/AWD compared to the shorter ES and its FWD. By today's standards, the LS is a full-sizer.
Though EPA size-ratings go by interior room and not exterior dimensions, I would not consider the ES a full-sizer....even by today's standards. It's at best a (slightly stretched) mid-sizer....about like a Lincoln MKZ.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Come on. The LS is done on a different platform....longer and RWD/AWD compared to the shorter ES and its FWD. By today's standards, the LS is a full-sizer.
The interior room of the ES350 is in fact larger than the upcoming LS500. That is why I ask..
The interior room of the ES350 is in fact larger than the upcoming LS500. That is why I ask..
I went into that in earlier posts. The way that EPA classifies vehicle size (by interior room) is not necessarily the same as the auto press, auto manufacturers, Consumer Reports, or necessarily even you or me, for that matter.
I went into that in earlier posts. The way that EPA classifies vehicle size (by interior room) is not necessarily the same as the auto press, auto manufacturers, Consumer Reports, or necessarily even you or me, for that matter.
The EPA is pretty straightforward and clear. They use interior space in cubic feet + cargo volume. For trucks, they use GVWR.
The 2019 Avalon should be on a projected 111.0 inch wheelbase very much like the outgoing Avalon. The current Lexus ES runs on a 111.0 wheelbase. The upcoming LS 500 is running a 123.0 wheel base. The thing with just looking at interior room in cubic feet doesn't address any of the other stuff that a luxury car manufacturer does to earn those big dollars in mark up over a FWD transverse platform like ES/Avalon.
That's why this is not really a fair comparison. Can you upgrade the drive of the Avalon/ES to a twin turbo V6, or let's say a future V8 or even turbo V8? You can't. Does or will the Avalon/ES ride like this new LS? No, it won't. Those are intangibles which people pay for when they spend on a big RWD/AWD platform loaded with luxe vs a FWD luxury platform. Interior space is only one measure of what's going to make a car great.
12-12-17, 07:48 PM
What? I drive as fast as Mercedes-Benz drivers all the time. How much faster can a MB go compared to a Lexus driver if both are keeping up with traffic on city streets and suburban / urban / intercity highways?
), they buy the lexus.
The LS is done on a different platform....longer and RWD/AWD compared to the shorter ES and its FWD. By today's standards, the LS is a full-sizer.
