mmarshall

Hmmm.....not sure I follow you there. All else equal (which of course, it seldom is), 55s will ride smoother than the 45s of today. With a radial tire, the thicker the sidewall (unless it is purposely made very stiff, for, say, run-flats), the softer the tire will ride over bumps, and the more slop you will have in the steering. I myself prefer the comfort...I don't personally care about sports-car handling....though it's nice (and fun) to get behind the wheel of a Miata once in a while, once I shoehorn myself in LOL.

Toys4RJill

We are talking about the Avalon. Not 45s.

mmarshall

Well (per the thread title), I'll withhold comment on the 2019 Avalon's suspension and tires until I actually sample them. Frankly, I don't see why they even market a Touring version of this car to start with....I mean, this is not a BMW crowd. Do they actually get a significant number of sales from it? I remember when Cadillac tried marketing a slightly stiffer, Touring version of the DeVille/DTS...called the Concours. Sales were quite low, and it didn't last very long.

Toys4RJill

Toyota has had an Avalon touring model for almost every model year dating back to 2005. What would the reason is for? There are people who like the ride of a firmer car.

MattyG

If you look at this category of vehicles it's a grouping of cars that are niche market and they are designed to be near luxury without stepping up to the big prestige brand. People will eventually come to a tipping point in their buying decision and that usually is measured by dollars/value and image. Avalon actually matches closer to Lacrosse because it's a niche buyer who's looking at these. Once the prices hit a certain mark, then that buyer starts looking at something more upmarket.

You can go look at an Impala and once it starts looking like you're headed into Buick territory, you'll look at Lacrosse. Avalon has a similar issue. It's a Toyota, so once it approaches a certain price, you'll look ES.

Buick loses sales to Enclave and even the Encore, while Avalon loses to Highlander and then the ES/RX.

And the Lacrosse has another competitor, the Cadillac XTS.

Toys4RJill

All well said MattyG. Toyota has always referred to the Avalon as a Japanese Buick. They used to use that mention in their press releases and marketing material. The Avalon was designed by Toyota for the Buick customer.

mmarshall

The Impala, with its conventional shifter and lack of the engine-start/stop system, will appeal more to traditionalists....though the rocker-switch on top of the shifter, that you have to push back and forth with your thumb for manual shifts, is awkward.


No. The Enclave, maybe (which has much the same size and powertrain as the Lacrosse), but not the Encore. Few, if any shoppers looking at full-size vehicles are going to end up in a B-class (sub-compact) Encore with a 1.4L Mickey-Mouse engine, although the Encore is admittedly very nice inside for the class and price.


Here, you're closer to the mark. All four of these vehicles originate from the same platform, and have more or less similiar drivetrains.

I found the XTS a disappointment. The Lacrosse is a better car in that class, for less money.

MattyG

It's an issue, but if a buyer doesn't care about that then they'll make the compromise. Money talks. Buy an Impala with the same platform and you save a lot of money. Only when it approaches the Buick's price, then you you look at the Lacrosse.

You'll be surprised at the number of seniors I see driving Encores and richer types driving Enclaves. They downsize and don't want the glory anymore and that's Encore. Nor do they care about what's under the hood. They need good fuel economy, easy step in/step out ride height and quiet fuss free motoring. You know that because you owned one. Enclave is for richer types who want the Lacrosse in a big body CUV.

GM competing against itself. That's why the average age of a Buick buyer in China is in the mid-thirties and in the US it's just getting down to the late 50's. Ok for the buyer demo, but not great.

mmarshall

Base-version Lacrosses now, with the four-cylinder hybrid drive-in, start at around 30K. Not a version I'd want, but they are there for the asking.


I owned a Verano, not an Encore (different platforms). But my point was that most of those driving Encores didn't cross-shop a full-size Lacrosse or Enclave. They probably decided to drop down in size before they even started shopping.



I know I was in the minority, especially compared to most of my friends at the time, but I had a big traditional Buick at age 19, in college, and absolutely LOVED it....even though it was old and worn.

MattyG

But that's a step down from people who would like smooth six cylinder power. They can get that in an Impala.

Good catch. I'm not a Buick man, so I get them all confused. It's GM at its usual marketing tricks, trying to segment the market with various platforms. With Toyota you have Camry, Avalon, ES/RX etc.

Very true. Smooth big sedans are a rare breed. The Lacrosse has a problem, it's being devalued as an old man's car before its time. Blame Buick and GM, because that's how they've been marketing them.

mmarshall

OK...maybe this will make it a little easier for you. In the American market, all of the smaller Buick products (the small Cascada convertible, the mid-size Regal sedans, the subcompact Encore CUVs, and the compact (now-discontinued) Verano sedans were rebadged Opel products that were developed/engineered in Germany from GM's European arm, and converted to American specs for this market. That is one reason why they helped raise Buick's reliability record so much......Opel products have developed a very good reputation for quality, and are generally built better and more solidly than the larger, American-designed Lacrosse and Enclave, which generally have average reliability records, though the new 2017 Lacrosse had complaints with the transmission-shifts and the video-screen messing up. Last, the mid-size Envision SUV is different from all the rest of the American-market Buicks.....it is built in China, imported and sold here, and hasn't really been in the market long enough to gauge long-term reliability, though the ones I looked at seemed every bit as well-built as the Opel, except for an unpleasant new-car smell inside from whatever assembly process they use.

In the future, though, at least some of this will change, since GM has (foolishly, IMO) sold off the Opel branch. The all-new Regal for 2018 may (?) be the last Opel-derived Buick.



The smoothest of all (outside of a Rolls/Bentley) is arguably the Mercedes S-class....but one is still looking at a near-6-figure price, even on base models.

MattyG

Thanks for the lesson. I actually knew all of that. I just don't keep track of domestic branded Buicks because well... I don't care. Been to England back in the day. Saw all sorts of Opels, Fords etc. Rode in them. My sister drove a MB. Now that I recall, neighbor had a Buick Encore. Always started it on her phone app and idled it endlessly. She was in her fifties, and a stuffy Canadian. I guess she should have had a cat or something

mmarshall

............then you will probably know that in Britain, Opel products are called Vauxhalls.

mmarshall

Anyhow, folks, let's get back to the Avalon. I'm not a mod, but if I don't mention it, they probably will....we're way off track.

Here's a teaser-shot of the grille and LED headlights:



http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/1...eration-avalon

MattyG

Today the landscape is changed. Even back then, Honda, Toyota and Nissan were taking hold. But for high end cars, it was Mercedes Benz. Only the high-holy gentry bothered with their connections to the Queen and Jags, etc. It doesn't matter about what they were branded as, it matters that today, GM is using Europe platforms as is Ford. I remember my sister telling me that British junk was essentially crap. Everybody drove Honda, Toyota.