davyjordi

right, i'm aware, but it's still disconcerting to know that others are reporting less than stellar experiences with the brand. lexus is slipping and i hope proactive action is taken to rectify the problematic issues.

because of those attributes, though, i wouldn't hesitate to purchase another lexus product.

peteharvey

Apart from Lexus' new found electronics problems, I wish I could find out how much creaks and rattles play a part?
Because President Akio's new found drive to make Lexus suspensions firmer comes with one caveat - more creaks and rattles.

SW17LS

It's not firmer suspensions, plenty of much firmer cars don't suffer from rattles and creaks, it's cheaper plastics and less robust build quality

UDel

I would not say Lexus reliability is bullet proof, there are some vehicles with a lot of expensive issues that never got addressed, Lexus is better then avg. but the current generation of Lexus models have some expensive issues out of character for Lexus.

mmarshall

Temperature can also play a role. Just as heat and cold affects the stiffness of tire-rubber and the thickness of shock-fluid (affecting ride-quality), it can also affect the number of rattles and squeaks, as heat expands parts and causes them to fit and press tighter against one another, reducing clearances.

SW17LS

Lets put it this way, I've owned 6 Lexus vehicles over the past 19 years, all owned in the same climate, driven on the same roads. The old ones had no creaks or rattles of any kind, even after 100k+ miles, in fact my 03 ES300 still has no creaks or rattles and it has 190,000 miles on it. The modern Lexus vehicles I've owned all had at least one or two rattles that had to be addressed prior to 30,000 miles. Thats a significant change. The fact that a 14 year old ES300 has fewer rattles than a 2 year old LS460, a car that despite being twice as expensive is 12 years younger isn't right.

A modern luxury car should be creak and rattle free regardless of the outside temperature, and my LS400, LS430, and ES300 were. My ES350, GS350 and LS460 were/are not.

davyjordi

this. temperature is accountable for so many squeaks and rattles across the automotive board, particularly owing to mmarshall's latter point.

peteharvey

There are a number of factors that determine creaks and rattles.
First off is how soft/firm the suspension is.
Because the firmer the suspension, the more the bump force will NOT be absorbed by the suspension, but transmitted to the body to result in creaks/rattles.
If zero force is transmitted into the body structure, there would be zero creaks/rattles.

Secondly, once bump force is transmitted to the body structure, the torsional rigidity/bending stiffness of the vehicle comes into play.
Because the stiffer the vehicle, the less it will bend and flex, resulting in creaks and rattles from both the metal body, and/or plastic parts.

Thirdly is the build quality.
Obviously, the more accurately fabricated the components, the better the fit.
Also, the more accurate the assembly of parts, the better the fit - hence the fewer creaks and rattles.

Fourth is temperature.
As temperature rises, the components expand, the joins become tighter etc, hence creaks/rattles.
For example, in the warmer months, my left hand side air vent/wood capping rattles; in the colder months, this disappears in my 4GS.

Fifthly, is the ability of metal and plastic components to expand and flex, without creaking/rattling, by virtue of the nature of the material itself, or the design of the join.

I'm not an encyclopedia. There are probably a number of other factors that affect creaking/rattling.

Finally, creaks/rattles is the sum of all the factors.
There may be a weakness here, but it can make up for the weakness somewhere else.
For example, if the suspension is firm and the shock is transmitted to the body, then other factors may compensate to result in the final outcome of creaks/rattles.

I hate to say it, but my 1996 3rd gen ES300 with 200,000 miles and driven by my staff on 205/65R15 has the least creaks and rattles.
This model is not great in torsional rigidity/bending stiffness and would fail today's safety tests, however it had juicy tires that absorbed the shock in the first place...
_

RXSF

The article cites a lot of issue stemming from electronics. I doubt that the electronics are failing. More likely, the customer is unable to fully understand the interface and the complexity of remote touch. These should not be seen as "problems" but design issues.

SW17LS

This is absurd, Lexus cars are at the most slightly firmer than they used to be. My LS460 isn't firmer than my LS400 was, and my 430 was a little softer and looser than either one, the reason why my 460 isn't as tight inside as my 400 is it isn't built as well...bottom line.

Other carmakers can make very firm cars that don't develop creaks and rattles. Lexus can too, they just have to choose to again.

peteharvey

Steve, do you have many friends who have firmed up their coils, or used lower profile tires?
Test drive their cars!
I have lots of friends who have firmed up their coils and used +1/+2/+3 tires/wheels, and I can tell you that the creaks and rattles go up.
With experience, you will learn the effect of firmer coils, lower profile, and shorter side wall tires on bump absorption, and creaks/rattles.

Btw, when we drive a 4GS in Sports + Mode, that is the damper valving that is firming up.
Dampers do NOT absorb shock; the coil spring does.
Dampers dissipate vertical oscillating motion energy from rebound into heat energy, which is dissipated into the atmosphere...
_

SW17LS

I'm not saying that firming up suspensions won't cause rattles and creaks, I'm saying that's not what has happened with Lexus, as the only "firmer" Lexus I have owned was my 4GS, my 10 ES350 and 15 LS460 are as soft as their predecessors before them but they still have more rattles and looseness inside than their older versions which I also owned did when they were MUCH older and more used. And the difference in damping we've seen with some Lexus models is very subtle, not as drastic as slamming the suspension on a modified car.

The issue is simple, it's build quality. Lower quality plastics that creak and don't melt together, and generally less stout construction.

My Kia Minivan rides much harder than my LS460, but no rattles. Why? Because it's put together better obviously.

The rattles in the LS460 aren't bad, I have the one in the console isolated, I have one "snap" in the dash in front of the passenger I have to figure out, and a slight rattle behind me somewhere. That however is unacceptable in a Lexus, especially the LS. I tolerated it in the ES and GS but it REALLY bugs me in the LS.

roadfrog

Not neccessarily. If you look at the long term ownership, they (and Honda) suffer from massive issues with transmission failures. My Acura was one of them.

Its already been "seen". Several members here have had zero issues with their Hyundai. Many of my family members and co-workers own them and also have had no problems whatsoever. My brother is on his second Hyundai (Elantra) and is looking to buy his third. Never seen the dealer for anything other than routine maintenance. My partner is on his second Santa Fe and his wife is on her second as well. Again...no issues. I could go on about other family members and partners, but basically same story.

SW17LS

Unfortunately I'm not surprised.

I don't think this is totally due to infotainment for Lexus. The RTC has been out since 2013, no reason for this drop to be attributed heavily to that as it's basically unchanged. I think it has a lot to do with rattles and little things like that too.

My Kia Minivan is rattle free, LS460 sadly is not.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Ditto. and if they're leaders in their segments,

Agree and have said so about this and other 'surveys' including CR which is another 'perception/subjective' study, not based on any objective data. still imteresting, but people being annoyed with how the main controlls work in a vehicle is not a reliability issue!