2019 Toyota Supra
05-06-19, 09:09 PM
#901
Pole Position
Somewhat Zupra related: I drove the new Z4 M40i and here are my impressions:
Quick review on the Z4 M40i I just test drove (with cockpit video in comments):
Good : great driver oriented cockpit with luxurious amenities and tech. Powerful B58 engine with wonderful mid to top end.
Bad : a little off the line turbo lag, handling is a little softer than I would have expected. More $$$ than I would have thought.
Ugly : the stock system pops and bangs off throttle, and is fun at first but a little annoying after.
Verdict : great little summer highway 1 cruiser with a wonderful engine, but this is not an athletic trackstar and more of a GT convertible.
Hopefully, the Zupra will be more hardcore then this as a 2 seat coupe...
Quick review on the Z4 M40i I just test drove (with cockpit video in comments):
Good : great driver oriented cockpit with luxurious amenities and tech. Powerful B58 engine with wonderful mid to top end.
Bad : a little off the line turbo lag, handling is a little softer than I would have expected. More $$$ than I would have thought.
Ugly : the stock system pops and bangs off throttle, and is fun at first but a little annoying after.
Verdict : great little summer highway 1 cruiser with a wonderful engine, but this is not an athletic trackstar and more of a GT convertible.
Hopefully, the Zupra will be more hardcore then this as a 2 seat coupe...
05-06-19, 09:35 PM
#902
Lead Lap
Somewhat Zupra related: I drove the new Z4 M40i and here are my impressions:
Quick review on the Z4 M40i I just test drove (with cockpit video in comments):
Good : great driver oriented cockpit with luxurious amenities and tech. Powerful B58 engine with wonderful mid to top end.
Bad : a little off the line turbo lag, handling is a little softer than I would have expected. More $$$ than I would have thought.
Ugly : the stock system pops and bangs off throttle, and is fun at first but a little annoying after.
Verdict : great little summer highway 1 cruiser with a wonderful engine, but this is not an athletic trackstar and more of a GT convertible.
Hopefully, the Zupra will be more hardcore then this as a 2 seat coupe...
Quick review on the Z4 M40i I just test drove (with cockpit video in comments):
Good : great driver oriented cockpit with luxurious amenities and tech. Powerful B58 engine with wonderful mid to top end.
Bad : a little off the line turbo lag, handling is a little softer than I would have expected. More $$$ than I would have thought.
Ugly : the stock system pops and bangs off throttle, and is fun at first but a little annoying after.
Verdict : great little summer highway 1 cruiser with a wonderful engine, but this is not an athletic trackstar and more of a GT convertible.
Hopefully, the Zupra will be more hardcore then this as a 2 seat coupe...
05-06-19, 09:59 PM
#903
Lead Lap
https://jalopnik.com/why-the-2020-to...why-1834540861
nice interview with Tetsuya Tada (as in tada it's a bmw) chief "supra" engineer, Tada reassures it's "not just a BMW", "it's a more serious car","buyers will like it" blah blah blah... but here's the main event:
tada's got some jokes here...
aka, current toyota is too cheap to develop a car they know won't be very profitable... personally i think people would've been ok (eventually at least) had toyota used a modified version of the turbo V6 in the new "LS" instead of an inline 6, people seemed to be ok with the R35 gtr no longer having an inline 6 when that was launched... and this way it would at least still be a toyota and have lots of tuning potential
that's what a supra should cost, considering "supra" most directly translates into english as "godzilla killer"
sounds like more BMW silly exhaust pops... also sounds like mr. tada is being severely restricted budget wise on what he can do, i'm certainly not placing most of the blame on him for the zupra
nice interview with Tetsuya Tada (as in tada it's a bmw) chief "supra" engineer, Tada reassures it's "not just a BMW", "it's a more serious car","buyers will like it" blah blah blah... but here's the main event:
Eventually they settled on taking aim at Porsche’s mid-engine Boxster and Cayman, two extremely worthy opponents. But why go with BMW in the first place?
“It wasn’t a matter of lowering costs,” Tada said. At least not entirely, though that did happen. “The Supra had to have an inline-six. BMW had a good inline-six.”
“It wasn’t a matter of lowering costs,” Tada said. At least not entirely, though that did happen. “The Supra had to have an inline-six. BMW had a good inline-six.”
It would’ve taken years for Toyota to develop such an engine from scratch, he said—and “another factory. How realistic would that be?”
Even if it meant a new inline-six engine family (or perhaps even a modular one, just like BMW and Mercedes are doing) for applications in other cars—like various Lexus models, I suggested—Tada said the long-term applications for pure, conventionally powered gasoline engines are increasingly limited. Toyota, like all automakers, is investing heavily into electrification and autonomy, he said. Re-tooling everything just to make a straight-six didn’t sound to be in the greater strategy.
And in the end, it all comes down to packaging.
“Aside from the Supra, there aren’t too many cars in existence now where a inline-six would better than the engines we’ve already built,” he said. “In the past lots of automakers had straight sixes. You should know exactly why” there are fewer of them these days, he said. “It’s a very difficult engine to package. You lose space for the driver and the passenger.”
That’s one of the reasons the new Supra is a two-seater, he said, unlike its predecessors that were 2+2s and more along the lines of grand tourers.
Even if it meant a new inline-six engine family (or perhaps even a modular one, just like BMW and Mercedes are doing) for applications in other cars—like various Lexus models, I suggested—Tada said the long-term applications for pure, conventionally powered gasoline engines are increasingly limited. Toyota, like all automakers, is investing heavily into electrification and autonomy, he said. Re-tooling everything just to make a straight-six didn’t sound to be in the greater strategy.
And in the end, it all comes down to packaging.
“Aside from the Supra, there aren’t too many cars in existence now where a inline-six would better than the engines we’ve already built,” he said. “In the past lots of automakers had straight sixes. You should know exactly why” there are fewer of them these days, he said. “It’s a very difficult engine to package. You lose space for the driver and the passenger.”
That’s one of the reasons the new Supra is a two-seater, he said, unlike its predecessors that were 2+2s and more along the lines of grand tourers.
To make the new Supra an all-Toyota project, Tada said, would have pushed development back two or three years and possibly put the price tag over $100,000. He didn’t want that, he said. While its $50,920 base price isn’t cheap, it’s still relatively attainable.
“To make the car so expensive would defeat the purpose of a Toyota sports car,” he said. He said he wanted the Supra to be something that normal humans could possibly afford if they worked for it. “That’s why it doesn’t use exotic materials like carbon fiber.”
“To make the car so expensive would defeat the purpose of a Toyota sports car,” he said. He said he wanted the Supra to be something that normal humans could possibly afford if they worked for it. “That’s why it doesn’t use exotic materials like carbon fiber.”
I closed by asking Tada what aspect of the new Supra he was most proud of. He gave me a solid enthusiast answer: the noise.
“The sound of the engine,” he said with a grin. “Not just when you’re on the throttle, but when you’re off. There are very stringent sound regulations these days. One generation before, there were a lot of cars that had a really good sound. But in the new Porsches and so on, everyone is restricted by these new regulations... in Europe and America. Every year, everything gets more strict.”
Being able to create the sound on the Supra, he said, “is almost a miracle. It may not even be possible on future production cars.”
“The sound of the engine,” he said with a grin. “Not just when you’re on the throttle, but when you’re off. There are very stringent sound regulations these days. One generation before, there were a lot of cars that had a really good sound. But in the new Porsches and so on, everyone is restricted by these new regulations... in Europe and America. Every year, everything gets more strict.”
Being able to create the sound on the Supra, he said, “is almost a miracle. It may not even be possible on future production cars.”
05-07-19, 12:07 AM
#904
I guess it's not common knowledge but despite Toyota deciding not to spend additional hundreds of millions to design a new I6 engine family from scratch that they had no intention of using in any other Toyota or Lexus model given the current push for electrification and autonomy they actually DID subject every component on the B58 engine (which its rumored they had a hand influencing the initial design of in the the first place since the BMW partnership predates the Supra MKV project) to their own stringent durability, duty cycle, stress and reliability standards. Every component down to mere bolts and washers.
And there are very minor differences in some components used on the Z4 and MKV B58's. For instance, the oil pump and turbocharger are Toyota designs exclusive to the Supra. Same for the ECU-- even if the logic board and metal casing is the same for both cars all the firmware programming for the Supra is Toyota's... not BMW's.
Is the B58 as-is 100% equivalent to a 2JZ-GTE? No. However BMW engineers were required time and again to revise or redesign whichever parts from the B58 that Toyota's QC analysis teams deemed not up to Toyota standards and they complied. This requirement was further applied to the entire co-designed chassis, suspension, etc. and any part that applied to Toyota's version of that shared underlying chassis and driveline design.
We'll find out soon enough how well that process will pay off for the Supra MKV but had Toyota not pushed for this you'd have had a somewhat similar B58 I-6 turbo engine but without the same level of **** failure analysis influencing its final production version.
On another note the co-developed chassis DID see manual testing sometime during the R&D phase at least for the Z4's 2.0L 6MT model only slated for Europe. Tada and his team have strongly suggested that a manual Supra has already been developed (in which trim they did not say however) so if they want to stop this charade of claiming that their flagship iconic sportscar had no significant demand for a manual they have two or three ZF or Getrag manuals available in the BMW parts bin that will bolt right up to the B58 block such as the one from the BMW M2 competition or the M3/M4. If the pedals, master and slave cylinder already exist for the European Z4 manual they will be the same parts for a manual Supra.
^^ I have to disagree here in terms of how you're suggesting that just because the current R35 GT-R is where it is in the echelon at $100k on up to $170k in some trims the Supra MKV should also be doing exactly the same.
The R35 is a magnificent supercar but it's already far more expensive that the original 2007 model and its a very different car than the 1998-2002 R34 GT-R and the R33 and R32 that preceded it. Nissan decided to take it where they did and the car world is certainly better for it but it's no longer an attainable GT-R, nor does it offer the same style of involvement that the R32-R34's did.
The Supra MKV being a base $50k car (not including a later GRMN which will command significantly more) is a lot closer to attainable while still offering most of what people expect from a Supra. (Of course currently minus a manual transmission option. And now it's a two-seater only but even during the initial design of the MKIV in the late 80's there was a push to make it a two seater that was vetoed by upper management in favor of the continued 2+2 layout).
I am very happy that the R35 GTR exists but I also lament that it wasn't some other car entirely which would have allowed the Skyline/Infiniti G to continue the GT-R lineage well below $100k with the VR engine family.
But whatever. The R35 has already been a legend since it first arrived and that's that. However as a $100k++ car with a $20k BorgWarner DCT transmission I'm happy that Toyota's Supra is roughly half that. Technically in today's money adjusted for inflation a Supra MKIV Twin Turbo 6-speed would be an $80k car. Ever check the actual monthly sales numbers for Nissan R35 GTRs? It's not many at all.
...and an $80k ballpark is what should more or less be expected if the initial sales of the MKV convince Toyota not only to release a manual variant and four cylinder turbo variant but also a higher performance GRMN variant at that price point.
Toyota wants to sell a LOT more MKV Supras than Nissan sells R35 GTRs.
The R35 GT-R is all about using any technology necessary to produce the highest performance number benchmarks possible. And it does this with aplomb. The Supra MKV, even if it's not the same as a bubble economy era MKIV, seems to be much more focused on driver involvement and engagement in a traditional RWD chassis at a significantly lower price point. With the exception of the foolish initial lack of a manual transmission, all things considered in today's difficult sportscar industry with all the increasingly restrictive regulations they have to conform to so far I think they've done very well.
They just need to get moving already on releasing the additional options and variants.
And there are very minor differences in some components used on the Z4 and MKV B58's. For instance, the oil pump and turbocharger are Toyota designs exclusive to the Supra. Same for the ECU-- even if the logic board and metal casing is the same for both cars all the firmware programming for the Supra is Toyota's... not BMW's.
Is the B58 as-is 100% equivalent to a 2JZ-GTE? No. However BMW engineers were required time and again to revise or redesign whichever parts from the B58 that Toyota's QC analysis teams deemed not up to Toyota standards and they complied. This requirement was further applied to the entire co-designed chassis, suspension, etc. and any part that applied to Toyota's version of that shared underlying chassis and driveline design.
We'll find out soon enough how well that process will pay off for the Supra MKV but had Toyota not pushed for this you'd have had a somewhat similar B58 I-6 turbo engine but without the same level of **** failure analysis influencing its final production version.
On another note the co-developed chassis DID see manual testing sometime during the R&D phase at least for the Z4's 2.0L 6MT model only slated for Europe. Tada and his team have strongly suggested that a manual Supra has already been developed (in which trim they did not say however) so if they want to stop this charade of claiming that their flagship iconic sportscar had no significant demand for a manual they have two or three ZF or Getrag manuals available in the BMW parts bin that will bolt right up to the B58 block such as the one from the BMW M2 competition or the M3/M4. If the pedals, master and slave cylinder already exist for the European Z4 manual they will be the same parts for a manual Supra.
The R35 is a magnificent supercar but it's already far more expensive that the original 2007 model and its a very different car than the 1998-2002 R34 GT-R and the R33 and R32 that preceded it. Nissan decided to take it where they did and the car world is certainly better for it but it's no longer an attainable GT-R, nor does it offer the same style of involvement that the R32-R34's did.
The Supra MKV being a base $50k car (not including a later GRMN which will command significantly more) is a lot closer to attainable while still offering most of what people expect from a Supra. (Of course currently minus a manual transmission option. And now it's a two-seater only but even during the initial design of the MKIV in the late 80's there was a push to make it a two seater that was vetoed by upper management in favor of the continued 2+2 layout).
I am very happy that the R35 GTR exists but I also lament that it wasn't some other car entirely which would have allowed the Skyline/Infiniti G to continue the GT-R lineage well below $100k with the VR engine family.
But whatever. The R35 has already been a legend since it first arrived and that's that. However as a $100k++ car with a $20k BorgWarner DCT transmission I'm happy that Toyota's Supra is roughly half that. Technically in today's money adjusted for inflation a Supra MKIV Twin Turbo 6-speed would be an $80k car. Ever check the actual monthly sales numbers for Nissan R35 GTRs? It's not many at all.
...and an $80k ballpark is what should more or less be expected if the initial sales of the MKV convince Toyota not only to release a manual variant and four cylinder turbo variant but also a higher performance GRMN variant at that price point.
Toyota wants to sell a LOT more MKV Supras than Nissan sells R35 GTRs.
The R35 GT-R is all about using any technology necessary to produce the highest performance number benchmarks possible. And it does this with aplomb. The Supra MKV, even if it's not the same as a bubble economy era MKIV, seems to be much more focused on driver involvement and engagement in a traditional RWD chassis at a significantly lower price point. With the exception of the foolish initial lack of a manual transmission, all things considered in today's difficult sportscar industry with all the increasingly restrictive regulations they have to conform to so far I think they've done very well.
They just need to get moving already on releasing the additional options and variants.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 05-07-19 at 12:53 AM.
05-07-19, 08:01 AM
#905
Lead Lap
^^ I have to disagree here in terms of how you're suggesting that just because the current R35 GT-R is where it is in the echelon at $100k on up to $170k in some trims the Supra MKV should also be doing exactly the same.
The R35 is a magnificent supercar but it's already far more expensive that the original 2007 model and its a very different car than the 1998-2002 R34 GT-R and the R33 and R32 that preceded it. Nissan decided to take it where they did and the car world is certainly better for it but it's no longer an attainable GT-R, nor does it offer the same style of involvement that the R32-R34's did.
The Supra MKV being a base $50k car (not including a later GRMN which will command significantly more) is a lot closer to attainable while still offering most of what people expect from a Supra. (Of course currently minus a manual transmission option. And now it's a two-seater only but even during the initial design of the MKIV in the late 80's there was a push to make it a two seater that was vetoed by upper management in favor of the continued 2+2 layout).
I am very happy that the R35 GTR exists but I also lament that it wasn't some other car entirely which would have allowed the Skyline/Infiniti G to continue the GT-R lineage well below $100k with the VR engine family.
But whatever. The R35 has already been a legend since it first arrived and that's that. However as a $100k++ car with a $20k BorgWarner DCT transmission I'm happy that Toyota's Supra is roughly half that. Technically in today's money adjusted for inflation a Supra MKIV Twin Turbo 6-speed would be an $80k car. Ever check the actual monthly sales numbers for Nissan R35 GTRs? It's not many at all.
...and an $80k ballpark is what should more or less be expected if the initial sales of the MKV convince Toyota not only to release a manual variant and four cylinder turbo variant but also a higher performance GRMN variant at that price point.
Toyota wants to sell a LOT more MKV Supras than Nissan sells R35 GTRs.
The R35 GT-R is all about using any technology necessary to produce the highest performance number benchmarks possible. And it does this with aplomb. The Supra MKV, even if it's not the same as a bubble economy era MKIV, seems to be much more focused on driver involvement and engagement in a traditional RWD chassis at a significantly lower price point. With the exception of the foolish initial lack of a manual transmission, all things considered in today's difficult sportscar industry with all the increasingly restrictive regulations they have to conform to so far I think they've done very well.
They just need to get moving already on releasing the additional options and variants.
The R35 is a magnificent supercar but it's already far more expensive that the original 2007 model and its a very different car than the 1998-2002 R34 GT-R and the R33 and R32 that preceded it. Nissan decided to take it where they did and the car world is certainly better for it but it's no longer an attainable GT-R, nor does it offer the same style of involvement that the R32-R34's did.
The Supra MKV being a base $50k car (not including a later GRMN which will command significantly more) is a lot closer to attainable while still offering most of what people expect from a Supra. (Of course currently minus a manual transmission option. And now it's a two-seater only but even during the initial design of the MKIV in the late 80's there was a push to make it a two seater that was vetoed by upper management in favor of the continued 2+2 layout).
I am very happy that the R35 GTR exists but I also lament that it wasn't some other car entirely which would have allowed the Skyline/Infiniti G to continue the GT-R lineage well below $100k with the VR engine family.
But whatever. The R35 has already been a legend since it first arrived and that's that. However as a $100k++ car with a $20k BorgWarner DCT transmission I'm happy that Toyota's Supra is roughly half that. Technically in today's money adjusted for inflation a Supra MKIV Twin Turbo 6-speed would be an $80k car. Ever check the actual monthly sales numbers for Nissan R35 GTRs? It's not many at all.
...and an $80k ballpark is what should more or less be expected if the initial sales of the MKV convince Toyota not only to release a manual variant and four cylinder turbo variant but also a higher performance GRMN variant at that price point.
Toyota wants to sell a LOT more MKV Supras than Nissan sells R35 GTRs.
The R35 GT-R is all about using any technology necessary to produce the highest performance number benchmarks possible. And it does this with aplomb. The Supra MKV, even if it's not the same as a bubble economy era MKIV, seems to be much more focused on driver involvement and engagement in a traditional RWD chassis at a significantly lower price point. With the exception of the foolish initial lack of a manual transmission, all things considered in today's difficult sportscar industry with all the increasingly restrictive regulations they have to conform to so far I think they've done very well.
They just need to get moving already on releasing the additional options and variants.
i personally don't want a world where my 15 year old sedan bought used for less than half the price of an Altima is considerably more powerful and faster than a brand new supra... a car who's previous iteration I idolize and consider a true dream car
and I'm sure Toyota does want to sell more of these than Nissan sells gtrs, but I don't want Toyota to do the best short term business solution, I want them to make the coolest car they can make... I don't want a supra to be relatively attainable, I don't want to see many of them, seeing one should be a rare special event
THIS is the reaction a supra should provoke lol
im gonna have to assume that you just want your own 2JZ to still be faster haha
05-07-19, 08:21 AM
#906
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
05-07-19, 08:44 AM
#907
Lead Lap
and what a shame that is lol... and it wouldn't be the first time toyota did that (mk iv supra, LFA, original LS)
i'm agreeing with mr. tada that for toyota to make it's own brand new inline 6 only for this new supra is just not realistic, 25 years ago there were a number of toyota products that used an inline 6 so that made more sense at the time... but like i said i think people forgot about the r35 gtr not having an inline 6 anymore after it proved itself to be one of the most capable cars ever made
toyota now has their own turbo v6, which as mr. tada also pointed out is easier to package... and who knows it might turn out that a gtr competitor supra would get enough people to become interested in toyota and buy a corolla s that it makes up for the supra project costs lol, that is of course the point of a halo car after all
i'm agreeing with mr. tada that for toyota to make it's own brand new inline 6 only for this new supra is just not realistic, 25 years ago there were a number of toyota products that used an inline 6 so that made more sense at the time... but like i said i think people forgot about the r35 gtr not having an inline 6 anymore after it proved itself to be one of the most capable cars ever made
toyota now has their own turbo v6, which as mr. tada also pointed out is easier to package... and who knows it might turn out that a gtr competitor supra would get enough people to become interested in toyota and buy a corolla s that it makes up for the supra project costs lol, that is of course the point of a halo car after all
05-07-19, 08:51 AM
#908
Lexus Fanatic
/\ /\
The Nissan GTR came out costing under $80K in 2007, the price has gone up significantly for the same basic car due to exchange rates and some other factors not really related to the original car actually cost to design/build which is why sales have fallen significantly.
The Nissan GTR came out costing under $80K in 2007, the price has gone up significantly for the same basic car due to exchange rates and some other factors not really related to the original car actually cost to design/build which is why sales have fallen significantly.
05-07-19, 09:32 AM
#909
Lexus Fanatic
https://jalopnik.com/why-the-2020-to...why-1834540861
nice interview with Tetsuya Tada (as in tada it's a bmw) chief "supra" engineer, Tada reassures it's "not just a BMW", "it's a more serious car","buyers will like it" blah blah blah... but here's the main event:
tada's got some jokes here...
aka, current toyota is too cheap to develop a car they know won't be very profitable... personally i think people would've been ok (eventually at least) had toyota used a modified version of the turbo V6 in the new "LS" instead of an inline 6, people seemed to be ok with the R35 gtr no longer having an inline 6 when that was launched... and this way it would at least still be a toyota and have lots of tuning potential
that's what a supra should cost, considering "supra" most directly translates into english as "godzilla killer"
sounds like more BMW silly exhaust pops... also sounds like mr. tada is being severely restricted budget wise on what he can do, i'm certainly not placing most of the blame on him for the zupra
nice interview with Tetsuya Tada (as in tada it's a bmw) chief "supra" engineer, Tada reassures it's "not just a BMW", "it's a more serious car","buyers will like it" blah blah blah... but here's the main event:
tada's got some jokes here...
aka, current toyota is too cheap to develop a car they know won't be very profitable... personally i think people would've been ok (eventually at least) had toyota used a modified version of the turbo V6 in the new "LS" instead of an inline 6, people seemed to be ok with the R35 gtr no longer having an inline 6 when that was launched... and this way it would at least still be a toyota and have lots of tuning potential
that's what a supra should cost, considering "supra" most directly translates into english as "godzilla killer"
sounds like more BMW silly exhaust pops... also sounds like mr. tada is being severely restricted budget wise on what he can do, i'm certainly not placing most of the blame on him for the zupra
What he said does not make too much sense, says one the reason the new Supra is a 2 seater is because of the inline 6 but a 3, 4 series have inline 6's and are 4 seaters, fairly roomy ones now and the last Supra had a inline 6 and was a 2+2. Why would they prioritize a very small relatively inexpensive 4cyl sports car to be a 2+2 with useless rear seats while the bigger more expensive 6 cylinder coupe is only a 2 seater? The reason the Supra is a 2 seater is because the BMW Z4 is a 2 seater, if they just based it on the 4 series it would be a 4 seater, look better, and could still keep the inline 6.
I don't think the new Supra would be 100K or anywhere near that if Toyota developed it themselves. The LC500 starts at around 92K and it has a V8, is far more luxurious then a Supra would ever be, and is a Lexus so it has a 10K or so markup just being a Lexus and there are already reports of some discounting so some are selling in the 80's already. The Lexus RC-F cost around 64K and they have been offering some generous discounts on them approaching 10K or even more in some cases and this car again has a Lexus 8 cylinder. A new Supra could have been based on both of those cars, they both have nice profiles, especially the LC and already have performance chops. They probably would not have had to do too much with the RC-F to get the price down to around $50K once you take away sound deadening, some luxury, Lexus markup, etc. Their main focus would be getting it lighter, either tuning the 8 cylinder more or dropping in a turbo charged motor. The LC500 is really what the new Supra should have been based on because it is a great design, it would be like the last Supra being shared with the SC, yes it would be more expensive but if they took away much of the luxury that goes into the LC, removed a lot of sound deadening, no Lexus markup, and it used a Toyota engine already in service but tuned or something about to go into service I am sure they could have gotten it around 60K or so and it would have been great and more in line what the last Supra was and what buyers wanted.
Another problem is targeting the Cayman/Boxster. The last Supra targeted larger,more upscale cars with more power like the 911, 928, Corvette, 300ZXtt, Skyline GTR. By targeting a 4 cylinder now the new Supra is not positioned like it was, it is positioned much lower, more of a 370 competitor now yet it still has a price tag of over 50K which is still expensive, I think they should have just targeted the Corvette/911 which sell in much higher numbers then the Boxster even if it meant the price went up around 10K and sales may be lower if they were going to call this car a Supra.
This new car may be a good sports car, may look better in person then it does in pics though I am skeptical but it should not be called a Supra as being based on a BMW roadster with a BMW engine now just doesn't lend itself to the image/prestige of the Supra especially considering it is clearly a lower end car, going after lower end cars now. Toyota still has to be given credit for offering several 2 door performance cars when most manufacturers/bean counters are too conservative and stodgy to even consider them and just say build more CUV's. I hope this Supra does well for Toyota and maybe spurs them to go on their own for the next gen for something that really does go after the 911, Corvette, GTR, we should be thankful the new Supra didn't end up being that 4cyl hybrid hatchback thing like what was rumored a few years ago.
I would have loved to see what they were going to do for a next Supra back in the late 90's/early 2000's, so sad they didn't do it and Toyota killed so many of its iconic sports cars. The rumors were the next Supra/4000GT would have used either a larger inline 6 or more likely a 4.0l tt V8 pumping out at least 375hp to over 400hp with aggressive styling.
05-07-19, 10:44 AM
#910
Lead Lap
I don't think the new Supra would be 100K or anywhere near that if Toyota developed it themselves. The LC500 starts at around 92K and it has a V8, is far more luxurious then a Supra would ever be, and is a Lexus so it has a 10K or so markup just being a Lexus and there are already reports of some discounting so some are selling in the 80's already. The Lexus RC-F cost around 64K and they have been offering some generous discounts on them approaching 10K or even more in some cases and this car again has a Lexus 8 cylinder. A new Supra could have been based on both of those cars, they both have nice profiles, especially the LC and already have performance chops. They probably would not have had to do too much with the RC-F to get the price down to around $50K once you take away sound deadening, some luxury, Lexus markup, etc. Their main focus would be getting it lighter, either tuning the 8 cylinder more or dropping in a turbo charged motor. The LC500 is really what the new Supra should have been based on because it is a great design, it would be like the last Supra being shared with the SC, yes it would be more expensive but if they took away much of the luxury that goes into the LC, removed a lot of sound deadening, no Lexus markup, and it used a Toyota engine already in service but tuned or something about to go into service I am sure they could have gotten it around 60K or so and it would have been great and more in line what the last Supra was and what buyers wanted.
the supra while very nice handling, was actually more of a grand tourer type car (like the 928, 911, corvette, etc...), in driving the supra i remember being a bit surprised at how comfortable it was... the seats are quite cushy and thick, and the ride is decently soft as well... but what most surprised me was that a completely stock 1994 toyota was this fast! when the 2nd turbo kicks in you get properly shot down the road, it's not just fast for an old car it's just flat out fast... definitely felt more than "only" 320 hp, when it first came out it must've felt insane
now almost 30 years have passed and the new car is no faster? that's just not right... i'm still waiting for smokey nagata's official opinion on the zupra though lol
05-07-19, 10:51 AM
#911
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i think regulations (emissions, economy, etc.) have made engine development MUCH MUCH more expensive these days, so Tada's comments make a lot of sense. they wanted inline-6, too expensive to develop one, bmw has a good one, bingo.
05-07-19, 11:02 AM
#912
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
What he said does not make too much sense, says one the reason the new Supra is a 2 seater is because of the inline 6 but a 3, 4 series have inline 6's and are 4 seaters, fairly roomy ones now and the last Supra had a inline 6 and was a 2+2. Why would they prioritize a very small relatively inexpensive 4cyl sports car to be a 2+2 with useless rear seats while the bigger more expensive 6 cylinder coupe is only a 2 seater? The reason the Supra is a 2 seater is because the BMW Z4 is a 2 seater, if they just based it on the 4 series it would be a 4 seater, look better, and could still keep the inline 6.
The Lexus RC-F cost around 64K and they have been offering some generous discounts on them approaching 10K or even more in some cases and this car again has a Lexus 8 cylinder. A new Supra could have been based on both of those cars, they both have nice profiles, especially the LC and already have performance chops.
and you keep mentioning discounts but that's dealer-related or incentives by toyota because the sales level isn't where they want it, neither of which is what dealers/toyota want so they're not going to build a new model at a lower price point to begin with.
The LC500 is really what the new Supra should have been based on because it is a great design...
Another problem is targeting the Cayman/Boxster. The last Supra targeted larger,more upscale cars with more power like the 911, 928, Corvette, 300ZXtt, Skyline GTR. By targeting a 4 cylinder now the new Supra is not positioned like it was, it is positioned much lower, more of a 370 competitor now yet it still has a price tag of over 50K which is still expensive, I think they should have just targeted the Corvette/911 which sell in much higher numbers then the Boxster even if it meant the price went up around 10K and sales may be lower if they were going to call this car a Supra.
while i don't care for the looks of the new supra, we may all end up wrong and maybe it will sell well and become a classic. that would be good for toyota, so let's hope so.
05-07-19, 11:17 AM
#913
Lead Lap
bottom line is... those of us who love the supra love it for being the toyota supra, which means all the best things about toyota (reliability, comfort, ergonomics, performance) applied to a sports car, aka literally the opposite of bmw
it wasn't because of an inline 6 that people loved the supra so much, they loved what an accomplishment it was and how it went toe to toe with some of the best in the industry... it held the C&D magazine 70-0 braking record for over a decade, until it was finally beaten by the porsche carrera... GT!! it took over 10 years until porsche of all companies produced a half million dollar supercar to finally take the crown from the supra, that is why the supra is the supra
and because toyota has proven time after time that it can make the best cars in the world, we know the only reason they haven't this time is because they didn't feel like it
05-07-19, 04:09 PM
#914
Given enough tuning and uprated boost any older car can be made to compete on part with some newer totally stock sports/muscle cars. Of course you also don't have to hunt down scarce parts for a brand new model either.
and I'm sure Toyota does want to sell more of these than Nissan sells gtrs, but I don't want Toyota to do the best short term business solution, I want them to make the coolest car they can make... I don't want a supra to be relatively attainable, I don't want to see many of them, seeing one should be a rare special event
Also, keep in mind that if a 90's MKIV Supra Turbo 6-speed's original MSRP adjusted for inflation is around $79k-$85k depending on options then this is right about what you can expect the 2021+ Supra MKV GRMN to have as an MSRP (not including added dealer ADM) with higher performance specs closer in line to a 2JZ-GTE BPU is released. If the car sells well as is then we'll see that. If it doesn't... then we probably won't.
And I do not regret a single thing about doing it this way even with the engine's true tuning potential being untapped. I love it as is every time I turn the key. There are many newer RWD or AWD used cars you can get for a bargain that are faster out of the box stock for stock. Similar 1JZ/2JZ turbo cars are faster, have less turbo lag and have more modern technology. So does the MKV Supra which I really do like a lot.
The trouble with anything even remotely like a new Supra or any muscle car or sports car today is that their market is, unfortunately, shrinking. I do not like this and I hope the trend levels off eventually but that's a reality. ALL automakers are putting the bulk of their investment and R&D dollars into electric vehicles (fine with me) and autonomous vehicles (which I'm not so enthused about when the business models for them is hinged on going against driving and private ownership).
Those are the much larger things you should be concerned about going forward. Personally I do not feel that Toyota has built a bad Supra. Today it would be very difficult to cost effectively do the full in-house equivalent of what any Japanese automaker was able to pull off during Japan's bubble economy era before it popped around 1992-1993. Remember that R&D work from those spending years was able to be marketed well into the late 90's and early 2000's. That is why we have the amazing range of awesome Japanese performance cars that we do from around 1985-2005 or so.
I maintain that if sales of the MKV Supra are strong enough we will probably see a GRMN model with a lot more horsepower. It may also use a Toyota quality analyzed and slightly re-engineered BMW M engine but if it shows up it should probably come into the MSRP ballpark of $80k give or take.... which adjusted for inflation will be right about what a 90's MKIV Supra Twin Turbo 6-speed M/T cost.
05-07-19, 04:34 PM
#915
Lead Lap
Hmm. That's not accurate at all on my part. I'd actually very much like one of the new Supras. I'd just prefer it to be released with the same 6-speed manual gearbox found in the BMW M2, M3 and M4 and possibly the S58 engine. Neither will be difficult for Toyota to do since the transmission, engine and other supporting parts already exist and since the MKV chassis saw manual R&D development already.
They already explained that they could have done it all themselves but given the realities of the market today, the economy in general and regulations that are far tougher and more stringent than they were in the late 80's when the MKIV Turbo was designed you would be looking at a $100k++ Supra. If that's within your acceptable ballpark then cool but I think then Toyota would be running into the same reality that Nissan is with how many buyers there are every month for a $100k++ halo car.
I get the joke but the guys in this video are also making fun OF such reactions to an MKIV Supra in the first place. Toyota probably won't have too much trouble generating that kind of hype around their new low volume car. Remember that the "335hp" is most certainly a somewhat underrated power figure just as the 2JZ-GTE's official "320hp" was and that it IS a tuneable drivetrain. Warranties aside it was designed to be modified for more power and Toyota expects to see this trend.
Nope. My car's 2JZ does not need to be faster than the Supra MKV's engine/driveline, nor do I plan to do much of anything to make it faster than it currently is. I'm very stubborn and determined. From scratch I built a totally stock 2JZ-GTE for my car to have a California smog/BAR legal turbo 2JZ engine just to enjoy without worries. It was easily 10x harder to get it exactly right and all stock and many times more expensive than a far more cost effective 2JZ NA-T build or JDM swap with twice the wheel horsepower.