bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

posters bring up things all the time not mentioned by OP's.

Sulu

I do not like diesel-powered passenger cars. Diesel fuel is a dirtier fuel than gasoline, made acceptable only by technology that increases operating costs. I am surprised that the people who complain about the poor economics of hybrid vehicles do not have similar complaints about the poor economics of modern diesel passenger vehicles.

Volkswagen (and Mazda) have proven that an automaker cannot legally sell a diesel passenger car in North America without the selective catalytic reduction (SCR) exhaust treatment that requires periodic refills of AdBlue, the urea-based diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) that reduces harmful nitrogen oxide emissions. If the DEF runs out, the car may not restart (potentially leaving the driver stranded) until the tank is refilled.

I much prefer hybrid vehicles (yes, I do drive an ES 300h hybrid). Yes, hybrids cost more to purchase (as do diesel vehicles) but they are much cleaner than diesel-powered and non-hybrid gasoline-powered vehicles. And on-going operating costs for hybrid vehicles are lower also. There are no special fluids to refill (no need for an expensive exhaust treatment system with DEF); engine maintenance may be lower because the engine operates less; and brake wear is less because the re-generative braking reduces the need for mechanical braking. Toyota hybrid vehicles (the mechanical bits plus the battery) have also proven to be very durable and reliable, which is why more and more taxis use Toyota Camry Hybrid and Prius hybrid cars.

As for the reduction in trunk space, all newer model Toyota hybrid passenger cars have the hybrid battery under the rear seat. I would assume that the new Camry Hybrid will also have its hybrid battery under the rear seat, opening up the full trunk again.

situman

Did anyone know you can get a Highlander Hybrid in base trim? Without much of a premium, if any? I didnt know until a friend said he bought one in LE trim. I'm surprised Toyota doesnt advertise it.

mmarshall

The Highlander LE Hybrid is on their web-site. Anyone can access it at any time.

https://www.toyota.com/highlanderhybrid/

situman

I think most people will think hybrids = high premium so most likely they will not even bother looking unless you are specifically looking for a hybrid. In my case, I never even considered the Hybrid trim as my next vehicle since I didnt even know and most of the time I look at dealer websites anyways. The dealers around here doesnt really stock the LE Hybrid, if at all so even less information.

geko29

While this is true, it's still hyperbole. I have to put $12 worth of DEF into my car once a year, which is hardly a significant expense or inconvenience. The stuff is available at every auto parts store nationwide as well as most gas stations, and there's a 1,000 mile warning before no start. The chances of getting stranded are pretty close to zero. People somehow manage to not run out of fuel with only a ~50 mile warning, which could be less than an hour. In most cases, 1,000 miles is about a month.

Wandl

Hey all - thanks for the inputs and suggestions; he is going to wait till closer to end of this year before making a decision and will use his Ford Exploder in the meanwhile. Interested to see what a 2018 will bring in terms of a Camry hybrid, and by then other options may raise their heads as well.

Aron9000

You make some excellent points about diesel. It is dirty and the regulations in the USA to make it clean make it a non-viable option, at least on a cheaper car. The only way VW was able to hit the cheap price point and make $$$$ on their diesel cars was to cheat. If they had played by the rules the TDI cars would have been $5k more than their gas ones if they wanted to make money on them. Also longer term ownership costs on a newer "clean diesel" car or truck can be absolutely insane. Replacing a bad cat converter on a late model Chevy Duramax truck is $5,000 at the dealer. If your friend is keeping this car a long time and drives a lot of miles, he doesn't want to be on the hook for replacing expensive emisions controls when the car is out of warranty.

Right now I'd recommend the Accord Hybrid if he wants a sedan. If he can stomach the styling of the new Prius, it does offer a lot more room for cargo, has a large back seat, and is cheaper than the Accord. Moving up in price, your friend might think of a new Chevy Volt. It would be the most economical car to operate, the 1st gen cars have had a pretty good reputation of being reliable over the long term as well. Prices have come down on them, Chevy's website say they start at 33k, I don't know if the government is still giving incentives on them. Still for 33k the Accord will be the nicer, more substantial feeling car.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Not saying they don't, I just don't know, but which newer toyota hybrid passenger car models have the battery under the seat?

peteharvey

The all new Prius has the battery pack sandwiched between the fuel tank and the rear seat base, because I think it's the first model off the TNGA platform.
However, if I'm not wrong, the 2012 Yaris Hybrid, and even the Corolla Hybrid Hatch also has the battery pack sandwiched between the fuel tank and the rear seat base.













The next gen Camry Hybrid to get lion fuel tank sandwiched between rear seat base and fuel tank.





Now, the next issue with hybrids for TMC is that, in the transition to full blown electric vehicles EV's, the Europeans have taken the lead with plug-in hybrids PHEV's, which use larger capacity lion battery packs between the rear wheels and above the rear suspension, combined with larger electric motors for much greater transitional performance, greater transitional economy via a much more decent EV-only range over TMC's traditional gasoline-electric hybrids with the traditionally small battery pack, the traditionally smaller electric motor, and the traditionally almost useless EV-only range.

However, the PHEV transition to full-blown EV does compromise resulting in a big battery pack under the trunk, with much more weight on the rear overhang, and reduced trunk capacity like the 330e, C350e and S500e pictured below.









Even full-blown electric vehicles like the Tesla Model S does have compromised weight which affects the agility [rate of change in direction], and compromised vertical cabin height, with ankles kicked up high and knees pointing to the sky, unless the roof line is made a good 3-4" taller to accommodate the battery cells.
There is no perfection.
Only compromise.

Unless of course, they use Porsche's ingenious Mission E design where there are NO battery cells in the rear foot well area, to accommodate the rear passengers' legs dropping down...

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Wow great post thanks. I didn't even know there are hybrid versions of Yaris and Corolla. MB S and C phevs reviewed very positively on motor week this week.

mmarshall

Yaris Hybrids are (apparently) confined to overseas markets. They are not marketed in either the U.S. or Canada........perhaps because of the large number of Prius models sold here.

peteharvey

I suspect it's because Prius are compact, but Yaris are sub-compact, so aren't available in the US.
Apparently, that Yaris Hybrid pictured above is from 2012.

Sulu

The Corolla Hybrid is produced and sold in China, where electrified vehicles are encouraged. If the Corolla Hybrid were sold in North America, it would overlap with the Prius and likely not sell, since it would be more expensive than the gasoline-only Corolla, and North Americans expect their smaller cars to come with smaller prices.

The Yaris Hybrid is produced and sold in Europe. It shares a platform and drivetrain with the Prius c model, which is sold in North America but not sold in Europe. Like the Corolla Hybrid, the Yaris Hybrid likely would not sell in North America, since North Americans expect sub-compact Yaris models to sell at sub-compact prices.

I personally am waiting for the next-generation Camry Hybrid, with its all-new engine and battery under the rear seat, opening up trunk space.

mmarshall

Given the Prius's Halloween-mask body lines (which, IMO, look like something out of Freddy's Elm Street LOL), if it were a choice between that or a Corolla Hybrid, I'd take the Corolla in a heartbeat. The Corolla, in general, also has what IMO is a more sensible gauge and control layout.

That's one area where Toyota might (?) take a cue from Lincoln. Lincoln had had a policy, for a number of years, of selling the MKZ entry-luxury sedans Hybrid for the same base price as their base gas-powered model. Makes it quite a bargain.

Well, if the Camry is going to get that, then the Next-Gen ES will probably also. That will be interesting to see.

You think you might be on the potential customer list? I can certainly think of worse ways to spend one's automotive dollars.