Don't understand how Mercedes C can outsell Lexus IS
05-05-17, 11:32 AM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
The 4-cylinder turbocharged engines and 8-speed transmission in the IS 200t and the BMW 328i have the same spec numbers on paper but the Lexus is slower for some reason. I don't know the reason. It could be that the Lexus transmission is slower to respond or it could be that the Lexus engine is tuned for economy -- it runs on the more efficient but less powerful Atkinson Cycle at low engine loads.
05-05-17, 11:44 AM
#47
The 4-cylinder turbocharged engines and 8-speed transmission in the IS 200t and the BMW 328i have the same spec numbers on paper but the Lexus is slower for some reason. I don't know the reason. It could be that the Lexus transmission is slower to respond or it could be that the Lexus engine is tuned for economy -- it runs on the more efficient but less powerful Atkinson Cycle at low engine loads.
BMW's published numbers are widely known to be underrated. Some dynos have shown that the published numbers for some BMWs are actually closer to the power to the wheels than the power at the crank.
For instance, the 340i has been shown to show 331hp to the wheels STOCK vs it's published 320hp.
source: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35355
The 2012 328i put down 226 at the wheels stock vs it's published 240 at the crank. That's approximately 265+ hp at the crank.
source: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=646824
As a former owner of both a F30 328i and a 340i, they are in fact severely underrated, and not immediately apparent on a test drive. On a closed course, or open highway when no one is looking and you open it up do you realize that there is actually more power than you think there is. Economy/Efficient and Sport modes, to me, are very conservative. Sport + mode shows the true nature of the F30s.
Obviously, I'm BMW biased, otherwise I wouldn't have chosen to buy 3 of them in a row.
05-05-17, 12:57 PM
#48
BMW's published numbers are widely known to be underrated. Some dynos have shown that the published numbers for some BMWs are actually closer to the power to the wheels than the power at the crank.
For instance, the 340i has been shown to show 331hp to the wheels STOCK vs it's published 320hp.
source: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35355
The 2012 328i put down 226 at the wheels stock vs it's published 240 at the crank. That's approximately 265+ hp at the crank.
source: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=646824
As a former owner of both a F30 328i and a 340i, they are in fact severely underrated, and not immediately apparent on a test drive. On a closed course, or open highway when no one is looking and you open it up do you realize that there is actually more power than you think there is. Economy/Efficient and Sport modes, to me, are very conservative. Sport + mode shows the true nature of the F30s.
Obviously, I'm BMW biased, otherwise I wouldn't have chosen to buy 3 of them in a row.
For instance, the 340i has been shown to show 331hp to the wheels STOCK vs it's published 320hp.
source: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35355
The 2012 328i put down 226 at the wheels stock vs it's published 240 at the crank. That's approximately 265+ hp at the crank.
source: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=646824
As a former owner of both a F30 328i and a 340i, they are in fact severely underrated, and not immediately apparent on a test drive. On a closed course, or open highway when no one is looking and you open it up do you realize that there is actually more power than you think there is. Economy/Efficient and Sport modes, to me, are very conservative. Sport + mode shows the true nature of the F30s.
Obviously, I'm BMW biased, otherwise I wouldn't have chosen to buy 3 of them in a row.
05-05-17, 02:30 PM
#49
I find that the part aluminium bodied 3 Series is much lighter than the 175 lbs quoted above.
I am sceptical of the under-rated horsepower claims above.
I remind that it is also the high torque that gives quick acceleration from 0-60.
I am sceptical of the under-rated horsepower claims above.
I remind that it is also the high torque that gives quick acceleration from 0-60.
05-05-17, 03:04 PM
#50
The current IS is a great car.
But aside from reliability, pricing, and handling it's not superior to the C-class in a single metric. The Lexus' boy racer interior doesn't help.
But aside from reliability, pricing, and handling it's not superior to the C-class in a single metric. The Lexus' boy racer interior doesn't help.
05-05-17, 03:09 PM
#51
Like many dynos, it's just a baseline, but that EXACT same dyno at BMS was used for the is200t, 328i and 340i:
is200t, 203whp:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35256
328i, 233whp
I can't find a photo of BMS doing the stock run on the same dyno, but here is one for their e85 tune where you can see that the 328i is on the same dyno:
http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...-dynojet-graph
Here are the results from the stock run for 233whp:
http://www.burgertuning.com/images/dynos/n20_jb4.jpg
Photo proof of same dyno:
So, it's a dynojet, and the numbers are going to read a bit higher than other dynos. But, what we can gleam from this is that the 240hp reported BMW 328i had more power to the wheels than the 241hp reported Lexus IS200t, by 30hp on the same dyno. That's not just a little, that's significant. This is in line with BMWs tendency to report worst case hp and torque dependent on temperture/elevation and Honda/Lexus/Toyota to tend to report near best case hp and torque numbers based on those same criteria. It's been like this for decades since before I was a young driver/enthusiast 20+ years ago. It's been debated over and over and accepted by many, denied by a few. If the 328i is quicker to 60, has more power based on THE EXACT SAME dyno... what's left to deny? What more proof is even possible?
Last edited by ragingf80; 05-05-17 at 03:13 PM.
05-05-17, 09:10 PM
#52
Lexus Test Driver
I see more new IS's than C's here in L.A. The IS is appealing to the testosterone boy-racers, and the C is appealing to people who want class and luxury. The IS also has a very aggressive lease rate. The C's dumpy/granny butt styling is the opposite of sporty. The IS' blocky interior is cold and dull. And so on...
I've said this a million times, I'd prefer a very sporty exterior, with a very luxurious interior. Best of both worlds. Nothing has been produced in the last eight years that meets those standards, hence me holding on to my 2IS.
I've said this a million times, I'd prefer a very sporty exterior, with a very luxurious interior. Best of both worlds. Nothing has been produced in the last eight years that meets those standards, hence me holding on to my 2IS.
05-05-17, 11:24 PM
#54
Do those dynos take into account the weight of the car?
Because if so, it is just as well that the 3 Series has higher overall power figures, because after all, the part aluminium bodied 3 Series will be quicker than the IS in both straight line and around corners.
TMC is not only slow to the game with forced induction, they are also slow to the game with part aluminium bodied chassis.
It is the turbo torque curve, and the firm springing on floaty dampers which makes the current 3 Series less pleasant in a straight-line and around corners compared to the IS350.
Because if so, it is just as well that the 3 Series has higher overall power figures, because after all, the part aluminium bodied 3 Series will be quicker than the IS in both straight line and around corners.
TMC is not only slow to the game with forced induction, they are also slow to the game with part aluminium bodied chassis.
It is the turbo torque curve, and the firm springing on floaty dampers which makes the current 3 Series less pleasant in a straight-line and around corners compared to the IS350.
05-06-17, 12:13 AM
#55
I see more new IS's than C's here in L.A. The IS is appealing to the testosterone boy-racers, and the C is appealing to people who want class and luxury. The IS also has a very aggressive lease rate. The C's dumpy/granny butt styling is the opposite of sporty. The IS' blocky interior is cold and dull. And so on...
I've said this a million times, I'd prefer a very sporty exterior, with a very luxurious interior. Best of both worlds. Nothing has been produced in the last eight years that meets those standards, hence me holding on to my 2IS.
I've said this a million times, I'd prefer a very sporty exterior, with a very luxurious interior. Best of both worlds. Nothing has been produced in the last eight years that meets those standards, hence me holding on to my 2IS.
05-06-17, 12:21 AM
#56
Do those dynos take into account the weight of the car?
Because if so, it is just as well that the 3 Series has higher overall power figures, because after all, the part aluminium bodied 3 Series will be quicker than the IS in both straight line and around corners.
TMC is not only slow to the game with forced induction, they are also slow to the game with part aluminium bodied chassis.
It is the turbo torque curve, and the firm springing on floaty dampers which makes the current 3 Series less pleasant in a straight-line and around corners compared to the IS350.
Because if so, it is just as well that the 3 Series has higher overall power figures, because after all, the part aluminium bodied 3 Series will be quicker than the IS in both straight line and around corners.
TMC is not only slow to the game with forced induction, they are also slow to the game with part aluminium bodied chassis.
It is the turbo torque curve, and the firm springing on floaty dampers which makes the current 3 Series less pleasant in a straight-line and around corners compared to the IS350.
05-06-17, 12:25 AM
#58
My M3 supposedly dynoed at 427whp stock on that same dyno. It's rated at 425, so that sounds about right.
wut? There is no magic here, the F30 is quicker and more powerful compared to it's IS counterpart. That doesn't mean it's a better car, so you don't have to make excuses for the IS. HP, torque and dyno numbers and are secondary to how you feel when you drive the car. If you don't enjoy driving a F30 over an IS350, by all means the IS350 is the better car for you.
wut? There is no magic here, the F30 is quicker and more powerful compared to it's IS counterpart. That doesn't mean it's a better car, so you don't have to make excuses for the IS. HP, torque and dyno numbers and are secondary to how you feel when you drive the car. If you don't enjoy driving a F30 over an IS350, by all means the IS350 is the better car for you.
Yep, many X5M owners dyno'd theirs and rwhp came out 550-570. With tunes 640 easy.
05-06-17, 01:39 AM
#59
Pole Position
The Audi A4 has a nicer interior, is lighter, more powerful and has AWD. The BMW 330i is both lighter and more powerful as well as better balanced. There are plenty of nice sports sedans at $45k, and the IS isn't the most luxurious, nor the sportiest, nor the best selling.
Does that mean that the IS isn't the best sports sedan for someone? No, we all choose a car for a variety of reasons. We have an emotional attachment to something about the car that makes us say "that's the car for me". If we didn't, we'd all be driving the same cars.
Does that mean that the IS isn't the best sports sedan for someone? No, we all choose a car for a variety of reasons. We have an emotional attachment to something about the car that makes us say "that's the car for me". If we didn't, we'd all be driving the same cars.
05-06-17, 06:44 AM
#60
Hmmm if the Lexus 200t and the 8 speed box is part of the transition then they don't seem to me to be transitioning very well, seeing in particular comments earlier re power outputs imagined or real, so it doesnt inspire in me much confidence in future iterations. (And the acceleration in recently published tests in both NA and hybrid versions of the LC don't seem tested to be up to Lexus's claims...) oh dear....