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if one motor is acting as a generator, it is adding drag on the drive train slowing the car down... if the 'generator' part is being used to power electrical parts of the car that's one thing, but if it's generating to recharge the battery, that doesn't make any sense to me because you'd be giving charge to the batter with one motor while taking away (more) with the other... what's the point?
In parallel-serial hybrids, the drag on the engine from the generator is not constant, varying dependent upon the need for power from the internal combustion engine to assist the drive motor. If the drive motor can produce enough power to drive the car, ALL of the engine's power can be used to regenerate the battery; as more power is needed from the engine to drive the car, the generator takes less of it. The load from the engine is constant and is shared between the generator and driving the car depending upon need. If there is no need (or want) to charge the battery AND there is no need for the engine to assist in driving the car (at slow speeds and when stopped), the engine just switches off.
Using one motor-generator to generate electricity while the other runs as a motor to drive the car is serial hybrid mode and is the most efficient operating mode for a hybrid vehicle. By decoupling the engine output from having to drive the car, the engine can run at its most efficient, constant RPM; having the engine constantly accelerate and decelerate is what really drives up fuel consumption.
Originally Posted by PatrixUSA
Karma uses a similar system in their cars I believe... with the difference being only the electric motors propel the car, it has a 2.0-liter turbocharged gas generator used to recharge the battery and power the electric motors when the all-electric range is exhausted. I like this system bc you can treat the car more like a traditional car, while always getting the instant torque of an electric car, and the eco friendly MPGs of a hybrid. And the solar paneled roof is kinda cool too.
Although not a beast, the two electric motors provide 403 hp and 981 lb-ft of torque on the newest model.
Although I am not that familiar with the Karma system, I do believe that it uses a serial hybrid system, where the engine is ONLY used to charge the battery and never drives the car. Since the engine never has to drive the car, it can be downsized to the point where it is just powerful enough to keep the battery charged.
c300 vs is350 is a wrong comparison, should have done it with the is200t. apple to apple (car wise) i think the c class is a better car. but value wise lexus always have better values, you get more car for the money
If you load up a C300, it's comparable to the 350 price wise. The 200T is more CLA territory
Let's say for $45k, Lexus makes the best sports sedan in its class.
[QUOTE=Hoovey2411;9856500]Shame we can't even get the ISh on this side of the pond. Hopefully an IS400 and IS F are in the works.
To answer the OP's question. The Mercedes marque has a history and pedigree that Lexus can't match. Funny thing is, that's okay but people don't understand that. What Lexus has done in 28 short years is remarkable and continues to be a force in the industry. However Lexus is not trying to be a better German car, it can't. What they can do is make a better luxury car. Toshio Ashai chief engineer of the new LS had a great quote "Not only will the LS symbolize the Lexus brand, it will become the definitive new-generation luxury car embodying Japanese tradition and culture, as such, this global pinnacle must go far beyond what the world expects from a luxury car.” Now this does not currently apply to the 3IS or a lot of their vehicles, but one could wager the LS will spawn more grown-up luxurious versions of the 5GS and 4IS (and others) in a few years with this philosophy. But currently coupled with all the above reasons posters mentioned about brand cache, options, niche vs universal, and number of versions, is why the Mercedes C-Class outsells the IS.
Lexus CAN match the pedigree of Mercedes. They did it in the past and it is possible to be done again. But perceptions about Lexus would have to change big time. This scenario is a perfect example of Lexus' loss of passion and focus; the IS has never lived up to a viable 3 series challenger, the IS-F possibly being the only exception. Mercedes returned to it's heritage and engineering excellence to regain lost ground. I would still chose a LEXUS any day over a German vehicle. The cost of maintenance, and spotty reliability being two negative factors for me.
If you load up a C300, it's comparable to the 350 price wise. The 200T is more CLA territory
Let's say for $45k, Lexus makes the best sports sedan in its class.
The Audi A4 has a nicer interior, is lighter, more powerful and has AWD. The BMW 330i is both lighter and more powerful as well as better balanced. There are plenty of nice sports sedans at $45k, and the IS isn't the most luxurious, nor the sportiest, nor the best selling.
Does that mean that the IS isn't the best sports sedan for someone? No, we all choose a car for a variety of reasons. We have an emotional attachment to something about the car that makes us say "that's the car for me". If we didn't, we'd all be driving the same cars.
The single-motor hybrid system used by the German automakers, Hyundai and most other automakers, in which the torque convertor is replaced by the electric motor-generator, is a very simple system that will never match the fuel efficiency of the 2-motor hybrid systems that Toyota, Ford, GM (in the Volt and Malibu Hybrid) and Honda Accord Hybrid use.
That is because the 1-motor (parallel) hybrid can only do thing at a time: The electric portion of the drivetrain can ONLY drive the car or charge the battery.
The 2-motor (parallel-serial) hybrid systems can do more: One motor can drive the car while the other acts as a generator to charge the battery; both motors (in the newer Toyota and GM systems) can drive the car, one motor driving and the other motor assisting; one or both motor-generators can charge the battery during coasting (to a stop); the engine can split its power to charge the battery AND assist the driving motor; the engine can provide all its power (without concurrently charging the battery) to assist the electric motor. With so many more options for charging the battery, the engine has more opportunities to use otherwise-wasted power to charge the battery, and the car needs a smaller engine and uses less fuel.
Thanks. If so, then why is the IS hybrid more than 2 seconds slower to the benchmark than the 330e and yet returns similar mpg?
The Audi A4 has a nicer interior, is lighter, more powerful and has AWD. The BMW 330i is both lighter and more powerful as well as better balanced. There are plenty of nice sports sedans at $45k, and the IS isn't the most luxurious, nor the sportiest, nor the best selling.
Does that mean that the IS isn't the best sports sedan for someone? No, we all choose a car for a variety of reasons. We have an emotional attachment to something about the car that makes us say "that's the car for me". If we didn't, we'd all be driving the same cars.
I equate sports sedans as something providing a compromise to not getting a sports car. It should be practical but dynamically good and fun to drive. I've test driven the cars you've mentioned (many times in some cases and chose the IS350 due to these reasons. The A4 has a nicer interior and faster to 60 due to AWD. The IS350 catches up by the 1/4th so really, not much difference in speed but dynamically I feel the RWD IS350 is much better. Audi steering feel has never been that impressive but the B9 is much better than the B8. To be truthful, I'd probably get the new S4 over the IS350 but its $10-15k more so not a great comp.The 330 is also less powerful and about the same weight (Motortrend says ~3530...my spec sheet on my car says 3570 lbs). I think not much difference in speed though to the IS. However, the F30 chassis isn't very good. I test drove the 335, 340 (LCI), and 328 numerous times and started disliking the car more I drove it. Just feels numb and dead steering feel. It drives BIGGER than the IS even though they are the same size. So yes, everyone has different criteria for the "best" car but the IS350 has won numerous sports sedan comparisons so its been critically acclaimed as being one of the best in its class.
Thanks. If so, then why is the IS hybrid more than 2 seconds slower to the benchmark than the 330e and yet returns similar mpg?
Official government ratings or real-life fuel consumption? All hybrid vehicles, regardless of type of hybrid system, tend to have optimistic government ratings.
I see now that the BMW 330e is a plug-in hybrid, which makes the comparison with the IS 300h a bad one -- not a true apples-to-apples comparison. Plug-in hybrids invariably get better fuel efficiency ratings than non-plug-in hybrids. Additionally, the 330e was likely designed and tuned for quick acceleration and the IS 300h hybrid powertrain is likely underpowered; underpowered powertrains in both hybrid and non-hybrid vehicles will have to work harder, thus drinking more fuel.
Thanks. If so, then why is the IS hybrid more than 2 seconds slower to the benchmark than the 330e and yet returns similar mpg?
Because the 330e is the next generation of plug-in hybrid PHEV's with a larger lithium ion battery pack under the trunk powering larger electric motors, which are much more efficient than traditional internal combustion engines, hence much quicker 0-60 times despite similar mileage.
However, take note that where the 3 Series base model gasoline was originally over 400 lbs lighter than the IS200t, and both gasoline 3 Series and IS200t have similar trunk space - in hybrid/PHEV form, the 330e now weighs nearly the same as the IS300h, while the 330e's trunk is actually nearly 20% smaller than the IS300h's trunk.
There is nothing perfect; life is a compromize.
The more you have here, the less you'll have there...
I equate sports sedans as something providing a compromise to not getting a sports car. It should be practical but dynamically good and fun to drive. I've test driven the cars you've mentioned (many times in some cases and chose the IS350 due to these reasons. The A4 has a nicer interior and faster to 60 due to AWD. The IS350 catches up by the 1/4th so really, not much difference in speed but dynamically I feel the RWD IS350 is much better. Audi steering feel has never been that impressive but the B9 is much better than the B8. To be truthful, I'd probably get the new S4 over the IS350 but its $10-15k more so not a great comp.The 330 is also less powerful and about the same weight (Motortrend says ~3530...my spec sheet on my car says 3570 lbs). I think not much difference in speed though to the IS. However, the F30 chassis isn't very good. I test drove the 335, 340 (LCI), and 328 numerous times and started disliking the car more I drove it. Just feels numb and dead steering feel. It drives BIGGER than the IS even though they are the same size. So yes, everyone has different criteria for the "best" car but the IS350 has won numerous sports sedan comparisons so its been critically acclaimed as being one of the best in its class.
Honestly, I can't argue with you here. I owned a 340i M Sport for about 3 months before I traded it for an M3. That being said, it was very quick and the LCI felt much better than the pre-LCI. I agree, the steering is a bit numb and I haven't driven an is350 to compare, which to me is not in the same league as the 340i anyway, price and power being so far apart. I would compare it more to the 330i. All in all, I think most cars in this segment are overweight and bloated. The IS is way too heavy for the numbers they put down, along with the F30 and C class. I had to step up to a M3 for a better weight/power ratio.
Because the 330e is the next generation of plug-in hybrid PHEV's with a larger lithium ion battery pack under the trunk powering larger electric motors, which are much more efficient than traditional internal combustion engines, hence much quicker 0-60 times despite similar mileage.
However, take note that where the 3 Series base model gasoline was originally over 400 lbs lighter than the IS200t, and both gasoline 3 Series and IS200t have similar trunk space - in hybrid/PHEV form, the 330e now weighs nearly the same as the IS300h, while the 330e's trunk is actually nearly 20% smaller than the IS300h's trunk.
There is nothing perfect; life is a compromize.
The more you have here, the less you'll have there...
I see. Do you think the gasoline engines play a part too? E.g. Non hybrid IS200t 0-100 @ 7.7secs vs 328i 0-100 @ 6.3 secs is a big difference (same tester) so would suggest the gasoline engine could do more to offset the weight disadvantage ?
I see. Do you think the gasoline engines play a part too? E.g. Non hybrid IS200t 0-100 @ 7.7secs vs 328i 0-100 @ 6.3 secs is a big difference (same tester) so would suggest the gasoline engine could do more to offset the weight disadvantage ?
The 2L turbo from Lexus is the worst in class. Just a bad comp.
I see. Do you think the gasoline engines play a part too? E.g. Non hybrid IS200t 0-100 @ 7.7secs vs 328i 0-100 @ 6.3 secs is a big difference (same tester) so would suggest the gasoline engine could do more to offset the weight disadvantage ?
Is the 328i you are comparing an AWD model? The BMW 328i in Canada only came as a xDrive (AWD) model. AWD may help acceleration.
If you load up a C300, it's comparable to the 350 price wise. The 200T is more CLA territory
Let's say for $45k, Lexus makes the best sports sedan in its class.
thus my statement that lexus has better value and you get more car for the money. but imho that doesn't make them the same league, i don't look at cars according to price, i put more focus on the drive train and everything together
I see. Do you think the gasoline engines play a part too? E.g. Non hybrid IS200t 0-100 @ 7.7secs vs 328i 0-100 @ 6.3 secs is a big difference (same tester) so would suggest the gasoline engine could do more to offset the weight disadvantage ?
The 4-cylinder turbocharged engines and 8-speed transmission in the IS 200t and the BMW 328i have the same spec numbers on paper but the Lexus is slower for some reason. I don't know the reason. It could be that the Lexus transmission is slower to respond or it could be that the Lexus engine is tuned for economy -- it runs on the more efficient but less powerful Atkinson Cycle at low engine loads.
The 4-cylinder turbocharged engines and 8-speed transmission in the IS 200t and the BMW 328i have the same spec numbers on paper but the Lexus is slower for some reason. I don't know the reason. It could be that the Lexus transmission is slower to respond or it could be that the Lexus engine is tuned for economy -- it runs on the more efficient but less powerful Atkinson Cycle at low engine loads.
The IS200t weighs roughly 175lbs more than the 330i which could definitely be a factor, maybe not the only one, but certainly a big one.
05-04-17, 07:12 AM
