ginessls43

This is not meant to be a political discussion, rather a specific discussion about Lexus/Toyota diesels trucks and SUV's in North America. This topic has been discussed plenty on various Lexus, Toyota, and Off Roading forums, and the discussion usually ends somewhere around the fact that it is not cost effective for Toyota to invest in meeting various diesel emission EPA regulations here in the States. With the current administration directing the EPA to research where regulations can be cut to help ease the restrictions on domestic industries, what is your opinion on the potential the EPA may lower restrictions on diesel emissions such that it would become more cost effective for Toyota to bring diesels into the US market? Granted the VW scandal is still relatively fresh, so that may work against things, but I feel we are missing out on amazing vehicles in the Toyota/Lexus lineup (turbo diesel Land Cruisers, Prado, Hilux, LX450d, etc.) that folks in South America, Asia, Europe, Middle East, and Australia get to enjoy. Toyota definitely knows and is aware of the demand and respect their diesel vehicles have the world over, and I doubt the US market would treat their diesel line up any different if they sold them here as well.

Personally, If these vehicles became available in the US market, I would have an order in on a LX450d or turbo diesel 70 series land cruiser before they even hit our shores.

Thoughts?

mmarshall

Those of us here in Car Chat and in the general community of auto enthusiasts, of course, know the difference, but the average American is probably so turned off by the VW/Audi diesel scandal that they tend to have tunnel-vision and look at all diesels that way. Perhaps that is why GM, even in all of its huge size, markets only one non-truck diesel in the U.S.....the Chevy Cruze.

ginessls43

Agreed regarding the general populations view on diesel cars but to a lesser extent regarding diesel light/medium/heavy duty trucks. There seems to be more diesel offerings from manufacturers here in the states now than say 10-15 years ago. BMW and Mercedes offer diesel sedans and SUVs. Jeep Cherokee has ecoDiesel option, with reports of a diesel variant of the Wrangler in the works. Jaguar is offering diesel in their sedans and SUVs, as well as Range Rover... It seems like European manufacturers are offering the diesel options in cars and trucks alike popular in Europe into the US market despite the whole VW scandal. Nissan offers the Titan xD with a Cummins diesel and theirs even the light duty GMC canyon diesel coming out I believe.

The rumors of Toyota doing something similar with the Tundra as Nissan did with the Titan didn't pan out it seems, and there seems to be zero interest from Toyota in offering a VD series diesel motor option instead of the normal UZ series gas V8s in Lexus/Toyota cars and trucks currently in the US. Its just hard to wrap my head around that especially knowing there are Power Stroke F-250, Cummins Ram 2500, and Duramax Chevy 2500HD's running around. The market clearly exists which other manufactures domestic and foreign and clearly going after. I don't know if foreign manufactures think they cannot tap the diesel truck market in the US because of Americans wanting only the Big Three to make their diesel trucks, but Nissan is jumping in (although with an american diesel motor).

Not sure what Toyota's thinking is, as they have diesel motors to fit in cars from the 2.0D in Corollas all the way up to 4.5 Turbo diesel V8s..

mmarshall

Yep, that's a large part of it....in fact, almost all of it. No matter what kind of power-plant is under the hood (diesel or gas), the full-size American pick-up market has been extremely hard for outside manufacturers to significantly penetrate. American F-150, Silverado/Sierra, and Ram owners are some of the world's most loyal enthusiasts. Toyota's Tundra, in general, has had more success than Nissan's Titan, but even the Tundra was hampered for a number of years by simply being too small...marketed as a full-size truck, when it was, in fact, not full-size....between 3/4 and 7/8. it did not become a true full-sizer till 2006, and then quality and design problems set in.

Toys4RJill

Haha. Autoblog podcast once said it best. All the people on the internet say they would buy the diesels. Then when they are offered these buyers would be nowhere to be found. It was a good laugh. Too bad Autoblog is just a shadow of its former self.

Anyways, I am afraid the cost of these diesels would cost way too much. I think a loaded LC 4.5d is $125k US if converted.

The only Diesel Toyota that would work would be the Tundra.

KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

The public perception and lack of knowledge on the subject of modern diesels-- despite VW/Audi's major screwups with the emissions cheating of their TDI's--is amazing. Many modern diesels do adhere to the rules and standards and are perfectly good to consider. Yet even as the feasible window for diesels with modern emissions treatment systems becomes smaller and smaller, the perception in the USA is often that all diesels are bad and all diesels pollute just like VW's examples.

Fair is fair and VW absolutely did wrong but that doesn't mean every other manufacturer did also.

What's really amazing and annoying is how we've had no diesel offerings in the largest Toyota and Lexus SUV's for the better part of about forty years. When I drive a very big vehicle like a Land Cruiser or Lexus LX or really any SUV I am not expecting to go fast like a sports car. I don't expect it to handle like a sports car. I also don't feel like burning gasoline like I do in a 500hp+ sports/muscle car. I can live with stupid crappy fuel economy when I have a very powerful and fun CAR. I think it's stupid in a big truck.

Toyota has had a very, very long time to offer their most capable big machines with diesels and turbodiesels in the USA even if the emission controls result in slightly less power but nope-- can't have that in the U.S. Even the FJ Cruiser never got a turbodiesel engine, something that is mind boggling.

I don't think Toyota and others will be risking much in the diesel arena at this point. Their reluctance over the years has unfortunately been our major loss. Despite EPA emissions testing funding being severely cut and despite what will probably be frozen in time emissions regulations under the current administration we're already too far into the gradually electrified era for diesels to make as much of a comeback in large vehicles as they would need.

Toyota and every other manufacturer knows they could sell emissions compliant turbodiesels in some large vehicles for a good few years but they are fighting not only against antiquated and inaccurate public perception about diesels but now the stigma that VW/Audi's "Dieselgate" has added on top of this.

Also, some municipalities in Europe are beginning to consider a point at which the sale of new diesels will be disallowed and even some major city centers are implementing near future diesel vehicle restrictions. Manufacturers take notice of this and it can and does influence where their R&D dollars go.

I do feel that the current Land Cruiser and Lexus LX desperately need a turbo diesel engine though. 13mpg city in an off-road capable truck when a diesel engine could be an option but isn't? Seriously, Toyota? It's a 4WD truck, not an LFA supercar or Supra Turbo.

It's not just Toyota/Lexus either that has been guilty of this. Ridiculously expensive as it is Mercedes (really Mercedes franchised dealers) have refused the idea of selling one of the many diesel G-Wagens in the USA for years. Some people want those things with the turbodiesel engines that the rest of the world has had access to but it's unobtanium brand new. So people import older diesel G Wagens if they're so determined and some spend a lot of money updating and modernizing them. Recently we can do the same with 1991 and older (ie: 25 year old) Toyota diesel 4WD vehicles through importers. Jeep has only recently realized that their popular Wrangler might be more appealing to buyers if they were to offer it with a diesel engine... something Wrangler enthusiasts have been asking for or doing themselves for a long time.

It's a unique crossroads in automotive history right now. It was never about not being able to sell one of their modern diesel engines that use Ad-Blue in one or more large SUV models due to emissions standards being too hard to pass. They could have revised slightly and Federalize a turbodiesel engine if they had wanted to. Toyota NA and Lexus NA just didn't want to. At this point the window for the viability of diesels on a global scale is rapidly narrowing due to tightened regulations and scrutiny across the board. That and the public perception issue combined are making OEM's take a much harder look at their business cases for investing in them.

The United States market got the short ended stick in this area and it would be nice to have had more/better turbodiesel options before now.

Toys4RJill

The current Toyota diesel engines will not sell. Not enough power vs the cost to purchase. Americans have always loved big V8 gas trucks and SUVs. The German diesels and what they offer and market is different. Toyota large SUVs are trying to take a slice of the domestic large truck and SUVs market share. The 5.7 iForce offers a far superior experience than the current 4.5 V8 Land Cruiser. Almost a 100+ hp advantage for a MSRP that would be less.

Johnhav430

Having been given a 335d loaner car, I rather liked the "idea" that it had well over 400 ft. lbs., and was doing 39 mpg on the highway (in that world that isn't very good, sister in law was getting 48-50 in her Passat which got bought back). The problem imho is that in other countries, diesel is often less than regular unleaded, which is a compeling argument to buy such a vehicle. But here, it often costs more than super so it's kinda like a hybrid, there is no financial break-even, rather, they are purchased to make a statement. Do they even last longer than their gas counterparts? Possibly not, as we saw with VW.

Aron9000

The main reason diesel hasn't caught on in the USA is due to the EPA's emissions standards. It simply costs too much to offer an emissions compliant diesel engine with the correct catalytic converter and urea injection systems needed to pass EPA tests. I always wondered how VW was the only manufacturer who figured out the cheap diesel engine option, how they were able to pass the EPA tests without all this expensive add on equipment(urea injection) that all the other diesels were equipped with.

If you look at diesel engine options in pickup trucks, that diesel engine for the Chevy Colorado is only available on the top trim crew cab truck that stickers at $40,000. The Ram Eco-diesel is only available on select trims, once again, its not an economy option, you pay for it by being forced into a higher trim level. On heavy duty trucks, the diesel is a $9,000 option, and if it isn't a work truck spec, they retail for $50-70k.

You also need to factor in that US regulations(all the DEF and emissions crap breaking costs a lot of $$$$) and higher diesel fuel prices(vs gasoline) make diesel engines in pickup trucks way more expensive in terms of operating costs. If the catalytic converter fails, you are looking at an eye watering bill of a few thousand dollars. I've heard tails of dealerships referring their customers down the street to the local diesel specialist to have the catalytic converter removed and the truck reprogrammed rather than the dealer replacing the faulty emissions equipment to the tune of $5,000. The reason people buy diesels in heavy duty trucks is for performance, there has been an all out arms race in the heavy duty segment to who can build the biggest, baddest, hardest working truck with a monster diesel under the hood. The hot-rodder guys can tune these engines to get an easy 200hp bump from the factory rating with minimal parts.

SW17LS

I would say that the average American has no knowledge of the VW/Audi diesel scandal. None whatsoever.

I think the issue with diesels here are public perception, lack of knowledge and experience, and cost. On a lot of models there is a big price gap and Americans don't see the benefit for the cost. Very few Americans have ever had a diesel or had anybody in their family with one.

People are open to it though for the right deal. For instance good friend of mine just leased a Range Rover and she got the diesel because the lease terms were better so it wound up being a little cheaper, and she drove it and liked how it drove better. She had never even driven a diesel before. Not a car person at all and has no knowledge of any diesel scandal.

So, for the right pricing people will buy them.

Och

iTrader: (3)

It funny when people that have no experience with diesels voice their opinions. I actually have experience with diesels, and I will not even remotely consider a diesel for a passenger vehicle. For instance, in my neighborhood there is only one gas station that sells diesel, its always packed with school buses during morning rush hour and its always filthy. That alone is reason good enough to stay away from diesels.

SW17LS

I know lots of people with diesels, all are very happy with their diesels. I've driven some of their cars as well as plenty of diesel passenger cars on test drives. I also know people with the same vehicle in diesel and gas and have driven both. Plenty of nice clean gas stations with diesel here, so that's not a problem. My opinion on the diesel is I'm ambivalent. It doesn't impact me positively or negatively so it's a matter of cost.

Instead of just posting something cutting people down who do offer opinions, why don't you share what about your diesel experience would keep you from buying a diesel passenger car.

RXSF

Average American doesn't understand torque figures. HP figures are certainly easier to grasp intuitively and easy to compare with other vehicles. A vehicle with low HP numbers but high torque will still lose in the mental battle about which engine is more powerful. The other issue is the perception (at least in luxury vehicles) on engine sizes. In order to get those awesome fuel economy numbers, you would need to resort to 1.8-2.0 liter small diesel engines, with nomenclature such as 220. Americans dislike that. Other issue is cost. Because they sell in such small volumes, diesels tend to be price higher than gas counterparts. Other issue is noise and refinement. Certainly better than before but not there yet. And lastly, the availability of diesel. Doesn't affect most people, but having to wait for the #2 pump in a crowded station can be extremely annoying, especially with the driver side/passenger side gas cap. Those are a lot of sacrifices for better MPG numbers.

Hybrids on the other hand do not really have drawbacks, per se and even have more positives built in vs gas counterparts, at least from a marketing/consumer perspective. Easy to understand which alternative vehicle won.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

doesnt help to have ultra low sulfur diesel that costs as much as midgrade vs cheaper than regular which is what you see in other places

ginessls43

I don't know, when did Toyota last offer diesels in the US Market, the 80's? They haven't given the US market a chance to prove them wrong. As the earlier post mentioned the loyal fan base surrounding the big three truck market is not unique to just the US truck manufacturers. Toyota has there share of loyal consumers globally of their trucks and SUVs, and it may even be argued that the following for Toyota trucks and SUV's globally is larger and more loyal than anything we see here with domestic pickups. Anyone who has travelled or lived outside the US for any period of time can see this. Even with the Tacoma's here the few folks I personally knew who owned one swore up and down they wouldn't get another Toyota after the rusting frame issue. Despite this they still wanted a diesel option from Toyota and when they couldn't wait any longer after years of carrot dangling about diesel options, reluctantly explored other options.

In my own experience, Toyota doesn't need to convince me about being a loyal customer, there are few things a sales person at a Toyota dealer can tell me about their products that I wouldn't already know. I currently own 3 Toyotas and a Lexus and have been buying and their products and advocating to friends and family for decades. Sure, they make a good product but its not without issues. My 2006 Rav4 (with 250K miles currently) was burning oil like mad (~1 Qt/1000 Miles). It took Toyota 5-6 years to even acknowledge the issue, and then issue a fix for their 2AZ motors. The Rusty Frames was another example. For years Lexus couldn't get the suspension geometry/feel right to appeal to the car enthusiast. That was the single argument from the german crowd with M3s etc that was hard to argue. Thankfully that gap is finally closing. Despite this, I would still prefer there products over another manufacturer, anymore loyalty would require me to apply for a job at Toyota NA.

As far as the diesel option in trucks and SUVs in the US, I liken it to if Toyota only brought the NA Supra to the US market. Sure it may have been a decent car, but no Turbo, LSD, 6MT Getrag, would leave US owners feeling like something is "missing" knowing whats available in other market...