KahnBB6

iTrader: (5)

Well... Peter Quintus of BMW M is wrong about current high torque manual transmissions being "awful" to use. They aren't. Now maybe if we're getting well beyond 700bhp the expected duty cycle (ie: how long an OEM transmission is expected to last against stock power over the life of the vehicle, which can be decades) of an OEM high performance manual transmission might become an issue. But currently as things stand there are several good ones in use by OEMs.

He's also speaking specifically about the M3 and M4, both of which are as big and heavy as an M5 *used* to be. One expects they will still continue to offer a manual transmission in their non-M 3 and 4 series cars and especially in the merely 365hp 2 series which is the real spiritual successor to the old 3 series and M3's of the 1990's. Ditching a manual transmission in the 2 series would have no excuse at all since the power levels those models live at are absolutely within the scope of reliability and ease of use.

BMW can do what they want but their arguments aren't very convincing unless they absolutely must keep pushing well beyond 600bhp in their big M badged cars. A while back a BMW executive suggested that their future M cars would probably cap out at 600hp or so, stating they didn't feel the need to develop for more power. I wonder what happened to that speculation on their part...?

Conventional automatics outdoing even DCT's is a surprise.

So at least some manufacturers say that manuals aren't even on their radar any longer and neither are DCT's because conventional automatics are not only more efficient but faster and universally better in every way. Okay then... if that is truly the case then why do I still hear people complain about some modern automatics in performance cars having terrible shift hangs, slow shifts, indecisive gear changes, delayed shifts, denied shifts (below the redline threshold of course) and generally somewhat non-telepathic alignment with what the driver wants to do?

Modern advanced automatics may be the dominant trend and manuals and DCT's may always be a very niche outlier or even a mostly extinct offering at some point but if a company no longer offers any other choice then they had better do a much better job of tailoring shift programming modes even in sporty models that aren't explicitly high performance models. Of course if customers no longer have any other choices the manufacturer(s) may just not bother to revise the transmission programming all the same even if enough people complain.

I think this is a good reason for anyone who cares about their driving experience whether they like manuals and DCT's or not to be very critical of how the transmission operates if it does not more or less line up with behavior that they like. If it all comes down to programming now then we need to be highly critical of poor or lazy transmission control software. We are in the age of ECU firmware flash updating after all.

In the meantime, BMW still sells the 2 series, M3's and M4's with manuals and soon the new Z5 roadster. And other manufacturers do offer manual transmissions in some of their models. One can hope a niche will always exist even into the electrified age (even EV cars do exist with manuals). Time will tell.

I think it is the milder sporty "fun" cars and mild high performance cars that will keep a manual option, however few are still made available. If the goal is to emulate racing technology or make the fastest sedan possible with the most in dash screens to sell to the most buyers... yeah, I can see a manual transmission being of little concern to an OEM.

But plenty of people still love to drive them for the involving experience alone no matter how much slower they are than the new state of the art.

RNM GS3

Fact is that most ///M buyers dont care about manuals and the ppl that got a DCT which is a $2,900 option on M3/4 would rather just have a simple automatic for sitting in traffic 90% of the time. Market dictates what manufacturers do.

The cars for true enthusiasts don't really exist anymore except for Miata, BRZ, Porsche 911 GT3......

gengar

Not even sure I'd call the GT3 an "enthusiast" car... maybe the manual supposedly coming back on the 2018 helps a bit.

mmarshall

Actually, their perception of the market. I find auto marketers to be the bane of my existence....often changing or eliminating products that I'd seriously consider buying.

.............and all three of those cars are available with automatics.

RNM GS3

GT3 is an enthusiast car in PDK or now manual for 991.2 because it provides a raw driving experience and NA motor. Very few cars like that around. You just need about $150k to get one but imo its well worth it.

RNM GS3

If 80% of ppl were getting manuals then automakers would continue to build them but thats not the case.

I mention BRZ, Miata etc not because of the manuals but because of the driving experience they provide.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

this isnt a suprise to me, PDK doesnt mean much to the normal driver who wont be tracking. DCTs are expensive, heavier, more maintenance for performance you can only experience on a track. Fast AT like is good enough for 99% of the people out there. Fast ATs are fast on upshifts, slower on downshifts but is good enough for that 99%

Johnhav430

Remember the SMGs? lol

imho we like whatever we like...I prefer a clutch, and never had any auto, nor my wife, until she got her SUV in 2011. I noticed that on the 997 Turbo and Turbo S, only an auto was available in the S. I would suspect that today, in a 991/991.5, maybe a clutch is not available in the base Turbo. Not sure if this would be only in the USA or worldwide. Sure a dual clutch should be faster on a track, but imho it's not the most exciting thing to move a lever from P, to D, to R, back to P.

Och

iTrader: (3)

The only manual that I ever owned is my motorcycle. I'm perfectly happy with automatics.

blacksc400

iTrader: (4)

There is a special edition Turbo R, which comes in manual.
Porsche put in the manual, remove some weight, made limited number of them, and charged a whole lot more money, talk about marketing

Johnhav430

I used to think getting a 911 was only a matter of time, now I wonder lol A guy retired last year, I said he Joe, don't you have a 911? He goes yeah. I say I just drove them at an event, not sure that I'll ever get one. He goes, took me 30 years, you've got time.....

I drove the 991's, incl. the GTS. I wonder if the 997's are in the sweet spot. A person told me at an event, if you've got the money, get a new one, I've had two. But I've found the sweet spot is 4-6 yrs. old, they rarely have many miles anyway and the cost comes down...personally, I'd love to have a 7-spd man. The ones I drove were PDK....

gengar

Not saying that the 991.1 GT3 doesn't provide a good driving experience, but even Preuninger admits that with the 991.1 GT3 they got carried away with chasing lap times rather than delivering the emotional experience that loyal Porsche diehards wanted.

Porsche learned their lesson from how much people loved the GT4 - hence the massive changes for the 991.2.

In terms of a daily driving Porsche that still has the raw emotions, the 997.2 is still the best all-around I've ever driven - it's just a shame that Porsche lagged so much on tech/amenities.

If you can do without hydraulic steering, I'd go for a 981.1 Cayman to get the NA engine (it's what I did).

Johnhav430

All I can say is Porsche puts on quite an event (the one I went to had autocross and lead/follow). I remember calling up a buddy with two M5's (the E39 and the 10 cyl. one after that is it E60?), and saying man, if a person can't own a 911, they may as well not even live. He goes, I guess I better **** myself now! Certainly are inspiring vehicles. I am ok with them being out of my reach....

Don't the 911s still lack a fob with push to start, having a key to the left of the wheel? Maybe that's sticking a little too much to tradition....

As Tom Cruise once said, "Porsche--there is no substitute."

mmarshall

.............Wanna bet?

mmarshall

911 buyers love tradition. That's why the car still has the same basic shape today that it had over a half-century ago. In fact, given the choice, some of the owners would probably want to go back to the air-cooled engines, given that they are less-complex, though they wouldn't pass modern emissions standards.