Trump talking about reviewing/rolling back 54.4 mpg fuel economy regulations
03-18-17, 07:16 PM
#31
Lexus Champion
^ Keep in mind that Ford DID NOT go bankrupt.
Inept management(decades of inept management) and cultures extremely resistant to change are what led to the bankruptcies. The big 3 were never able to get their costs in line to where they could make competitive small cars and turn a profit on said small cars. With CAFE giving them a free pass to make big $$$$ on overpriced trucks and SUV's, yeah maybe the government created a regulatory environment for them to make an EASY buck on cars/trucks that had much fatter profit margins. Still I lay the blame on management and corporate culture, as other car makers flourished under the same regulations.
That being said, GM is so heavily invested in China, if they lose money in the US, it doesn't matter quite as much as it used to. In 2015 they sold 3.6 million cars in China, vs 3.0 million in the USA. 5 to 10 years from now, it wouldn't surprise me if they sold double the cars in China that they do in the USA. Hate on Rick Wagoner(GM's CEO from 2000-2008) for running the company aground, but the man did have some vision in China. It was under his watch that they laid the foundation for GM's success in China.
Inept management(decades of inept management) and cultures extremely resistant to change are what led to the bankruptcies. The big 3 were never able to get their costs in line to where they could make competitive small cars and turn a profit on said small cars. With CAFE giving them a free pass to make big $$$$ on overpriced trucks and SUV's, yeah maybe the government created a regulatory environment for them to make an EASY buck on cars/trucks that had much fatter profit margins. Still I lay the blame on management and corporate culture, as other car makers flourished under the same regulations.
That being said, GM is so heavily invested in China, if they lose money in the US, it doesn't matter quite as much as it used to. In 2015 they sold 3.6 million cars in China, vs 3.0 million in the USA. 5 to 10 years from now, it wouldn't surprise me if they sold double the cars in China that they do in the USA. Hate on Rick Wagoner(GM's CEO from 2000-2008) for running the company aground, but the man did have some vision in China. It was under his watch that they laid the foundation for GM's success in China.
Last edited by dseag2; 03-18-17 at 07:20 PM.
03-18-17, 07:31 PM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
what i want to see is a streamlining of gasoline 'standards' across the country... currently refiners have to make DOZENS of different kinds of fuel, even different kinds for different times of the year, to comply with different state rules. streamlining this would reduce refining complexity greatly, improving supply, competition, and easing prices. but environmentalists don't care - they just want to see gasoline be forced out of business as quickly as possibly, no matter the cost. 
03-18-17, 08:14 PM
#33
As for the high prices being paid to suppliers, I know people who worked for suppliers of GM, they hated GM's guts. Always looking for a way to short-change them. I know one company started working with Toyota and Honda, once they were in a viable position, they told GM to pound sand, that they did not want their business.
03-18-17, 08:30 PM
#34
Lexus Fanatic
Legacy costs for retired UAW workers were also a huge burden for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. They should've told then current UAW employees to pound sand about 30-35 years ago(especially Chrysler right after it got that fed bailout in 1980) and came up with a plan that didn't leave the company on the hook for future retiree benefits. I don't want to hate on UAW employees, but they were paid(and older workers grandfathered in currently) A LOT more than non UAW workers in other US factories.
As for the high prices being paid to suppliers, I know people who worked for suppliers of GM, they hated GM's guts. Always looking for a way to short-change them. I know one company started working with Toyota and Honda, once they were in a viable position, they told GM to pound sand, that they did not want their business.
Last edited by mmarshall; 03-18-17 at 08:36 PM.
03-18-17, 08:32 PM
#35
Lexus Champion
I agree with what you say, that vehicles need to be lighter. However, with increasgly stringent crash standards(the big one being the rollover/roof crush standard which has resulted in huge a/b/c/d pillars), its hard to make new cars lighter. Especially 2 door cars with long doors, you can end up with some seriously goofy designs with huge blind spots(IE 5th and 6th gen Camaro)
When an automaker uses the latest in computer-aided engineering design, and high- and ultra-high-strength steels and other materials, that can be accomplished without making cars that look like the heavily-armoured presidential limo.
03-18-17, 08:40 PM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
I have found late-model GM vehicles to be particularly bad when it comes to wide A-, B-, C-pillars. Those tremendously thick A-pillars must be wide enough to hide oncoming transport trucks in intersections; I understand that late-model GM vehicles are particularly heavy also. But that is what comes about from trying to meet current crash and rollover standards without using the latest in design and materials engineering and technology.
When an automaker uses the latest in computer-aided engineering design, and high- and ultra-high-strength steels and other materials, that can be accomplished without making cars that look like the heavily-armoured presidential limo.
When an automaker uses the latest in computer-aided engineering design, and high- and ultra-high-strength steels and other materials, that can be accomplished without making cars that look like the heavily-armoured presidential limo.
03-18-17, 08:42 PM
#37
Lexus Champion
History repeating? Another blow to Detroit? Unless pushed they get lazy. This this it is protectionism + inferior technology which will give advantage to
foreign auto makers. IMO, DT is trying to turn the clock back.
foreign auto makers. IMO, DT is trying to turn the clock back.
03-18-17, 08:48 PM
#38
Lexus Fanatic
We've got too many unemployed people in the Rust Belt to keep making excuses.....the time for protectionism has come. That is why Trump got elected. The protectionism he wants will actually turn the clock forward, not back. We have had decades of just the opposite....increasing globalization and outsourcing of jobs. Enough is Enough....that just won't cut it any more. Those days are gone...or will soon be. The rollback of the MPG standards (if it comes about) will also help a lot....by allowing more of the type of vehicles built that many people want, and are willing to buy.
03-18-17, 08:51 PM
#39
Lexus Champion
Dr. Deming was an American engineer, statistician and management consultant who worked with the Japanese in the post-WW2 period to improve the quality of their manufactured products. Ironically, while the Japanese accepted his principles, the Americans did not.
I think we have already seen what happens when a Japanese transplant forgets these principles: Toyota had a problem with the supplier(s) of their American-built Camry accelerator pedals some years ago. I doubt we will see this problem again in the near future.
The problem with Takata airbags does not stem from these principles, in my opinion (it was not a problem with a Japanese automaker like Honda not treating their supplier Takata with respect). The problem with Takata was an internal one, similar to what we saw with GM and its cheap ignition system: Cut costs at all costs.
03-18-17, 08:54 PM
#40
Lexus Fanatic
The Japanese philosophy of treating suppliers with respect comes about from W. Edwards Deming's 14 key quality management principles that advocated good, long-term relationships with suppliers: treat them with respect and you will be awarded with good product in return.
Dr. Deming was an American engineer, statistician and management consultant who worked with the Japanese in the post-WW2 period to improve the quality of their manufactured products. Ironically, while the Japanese accepted his principles, the Americans did not.
I think we have already seen what happens when a Japanese transplant forgets these principles: Toyota had a problem with the supplier(s) of their American-built Camry accelerator pedals some years ago. I doubt we will see this problem again in the near future.
The problem with Takata airbags does not stem from these principles, in my opinion (it was not a problem with a Japanese automaker like Honda not treating their supplier Takata with respect). The problem with Takata was an internal one, similar to what we saw with GM and its cheap ignition system: Cut costs at all costs.
Dr. Deming was an American engineer, statistician and management consultant who worked with the Japanese in the post-WW2 period to improve the quality of their manufactured products. Ironically, while the Japanese accepted his principles, the Americans did not.
I think we have already seen what happens when a Japanese transplant forgets these principles: Toyota had a problem with the supplier(s) of their American-built Camry accelerator pedals some years ago. I doubt we will see this problem again in the near future.
The problem with Takata airbags does not stem from these principles, in my opinion (it was not a problem with a Japanese automaker like Honda not treating their supplier Takata with respect). The problem with Takata was an internal one, similar to what we saw with GM and its cheap ignition system: Cut costs at all costs.
03-18-17, 09:38 PM
#41
Lexus Champion
[QUOTE=mmarshall;9805983]We've got too many unemployed people in the Rust Belt to keep making excuses.....the time for protectionism has come. That is why Trump got elected. The protectionism he wants will actually turn the clock forward, not back. We have had decades of just the opposite....increasing globalization and outsourcing of jobs. Enough is Enough....that just won't cut it any more. Those days are gone...or will soon be. The rollback of the MPG standards (if it comes about) will also help a lot....by allowing more of the type of vehicles built that many people want, and are willing to buy.[/QUOTE
IMO, unemployed should be trained to be useful in this day of fast changing technical world. Some people depended on union to keep their jobs while they're employed, they should upgrade their knowledge and skill set. Apple said moving plant back home is difficult for lack of skilled workers on assembly line. I never belonged to a union, I was never unemployed, I always worked hard. I kept up with advancement in my field going to training or enrolling to a course at school, etc. My wife was same my family members are all like that. I heard DT is trying to cut budget for crime victim's fund, folks below poverty line. I remember Clinton cut off bum welfare recipients unless they move their butt and go back to school or training for new employable skill set.
Days of life time job is gone with my generation. One has to be flexible, adaptable to a rapid changing world with good preparation. Otherwise one will become a burden to the society. My kids are working hard, they are putting away money regularly so they can self support themselves without government help like social security or old age supplemental income provided by government now but may disappear down the road when they retire. They are in the age of mid-30s, peak time of productive life, doctor and PE with secondary
skills and qualification. They are also qualified to teach in their profession or in music. My DIL is a engineer/professor(tenured), SIL is engineer turned business man owning a mid-size fine instrument machine shop(all computerized with my help) too much work to handle always. His specialty is doing something others are not willing to touch.
IMO, unemployed should be trained to be useful in this day of fast changing technical world. Some people depended on union to keep their jobs while they're employed, they should upgrade their knowledge and skill set. Apple said moving plant back home is difficult for lack of skilled workers on assembly line. I never belonged to a union, I was never unemployed, I always worked hard. I kept up with advancement in my field going to training or enrolling to a course at school, etc. My wife was same my family members are all like that. I heard DT is trying to cut budget for crime victim's fund, folks below poverty line. I remember Clinton cut off bum welfare recipients unless they move their butt and go back to school or training for new employable skill set.
Days of life time job is gone with my generation. One has to be flexible, adaptable to a rapid changing world with good preparation. Otherwise one will become a burden to the society. My kids are working hard, they are putting away money regularly so they can self support themselves without government help like social security or old age supplemental income provided by government now but may disappear down the road when they retire. They are in the age of mid-30s, peak time of productive life, doctor and PE with secondary
skills and qualification. They are also qualified to teach in their profession or in music. My DIL is a engineer/professor(tenured), SIL is engineer turned business man owning a mid-size fine instrument machine shop(all computerized with my help) too much work to handle always. His specialty is doing something others are not willing to touch.
Last edited by Htony; 03-18-17 at 09:48 PM.
03-18-17, 09:39 PM
#42
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
I have found late-model GM vehicles to be particularly bad when it comes to wide A-, B-, C-pillars. Those tremendously thick A-pillars must be wide enough to hide oncoming transport trucks in intersections; I understand that late-model GM vehicles are particularly heavy also. But that is what comes about from trying to meet current crash and rollover standards without using the latest in design and materials engineering and technology.
When an automaker uses the latest in computer-aided engineering design, and high- and ultra-high-strength steels and other materials, that can be accomplished without making cars that look like the heavily-armoured presidential limo.
When an automaker uses the latest in computer-aided engineering design, and high- and ultra-high-strength steels and other materials, that can be accomplished without making cars that look like the heavily-armoured presidential limo.
03-18-17, 10:29 PM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
I think he's referring to the Camaro, which has a reputation for bunker-hole visibility, and some of the Buick sedans, which also have small windows (not as small as the Camaro's) and larger-than-average roof pillars for rollover protection.
03-19-17, 09:01 AM
#44
Lexus Champion
The last-generation Buick LaCrosse was particularly bad, as is the Cadillac XTS; the Chevy Equinox is also bad. They all have A-pillars so wide that they make the interior claustrophobic but dangerous, especially in an intersection.
