mmarshall

Some issues, though, about styling, are fact, and go beyond what is merely fashionable at the current time or not, or whether one agrees with it or not in their opinions. For instance, you can either see out of some designs or you can't. Sitting in the drivers' seat, and half-blind from poor visibility, no amount of opinionating, or of taking an attitude of "Well, styling is just what I make of it" will allow the human eye to see past overly-large C or D-pillars or low droop-rear-rooflines. One of the reasons (among many) why Subaru Outbacks and Foresters are so popular is their simple, no-nonsense, good-visibility/good-space-efficiency designs, which are overly-conservative to some, but allow for tall square windows, high rooflines, and excellent visibility. Of course, back-up cameras and cross-traffic-alert systems help, but those are devices that can fail. A nice, high-visibility roofline and windows are there to stay....and won't fail as long as you keep the windows clean LOL.

situman

Guys things will improve as time goes on. Compare the spindle grill when the 2013 GS came out to the spindle grill on the LC and LS. No one can argue that is been refined from being ugly and garish to being refined with a good balance of elegance and aggressiveness. Powertrains definitely needs some updating and refinement, but we already know that will happen in the next yr or two starting with the new LS. Acuras are nothing more than rebadged Civics and Accords, whereas Lexus has its own platform in its higher tier cars. For people to say Lexus will become the next Acura is ridiculous since that would imply every Lexus is either a Corolla or Camry.

Johnhav430

The cars that were listed were for the most part 4 cyl turbos, which is what folks are used to today, meaning, all the torque is available already at 1700 rpm or so. I would think the motor would actually be the achilles heel on a Lexus 350...torque cannot really be manipulated in marketing materials, as HP can, because it all boils down to physics and the definition of...

Truth be told, Toyota Motor is a very successful company. They even stood up to the current President regarding the Corolla production. They are manufacturing what their audience wants, and yes since most of their vehicles are now dated, whatever the next generations bring, like the LS500, is still what they believe their audience wants. They are not building 750's, A8L's, 540i's, because that market wants those cars. So if they become the next Acura, that's by design...my .02

Sulu

The poor visibility that results from the sitting-in-a-tub perspective is caused by the high beltline style, which has been the fashion for a number of years now. Despite it being "bad styling" in your opinion, Mike, it has not hurt sales. Ask around, and you will just as likely receive a "I like it; it is good styling -- it makes the car look sleeker" answer as you are to receive the opposite answer "I don't like it; it is bad styling -- it reduces visibility out of the car". It all revolves around fashion.

You cannot use Subaru as an example. Subarus are niche products that are attractive to its fans not because of their fashionable or non-fashionable styling but because of other, unique characteristics. One characteristic that appeals to it small core of fans may be its lower beltlines. Another characteristic may very well be its anti-fashion styling.

peteharvey

Sulu, thinking that a single individual person's opinion is subjective is true, but it is too simplistic to think that way.
Our human civilization is far more sophisticated than that.
Since something like 500 BC, the Greeks have had "democracy" - meaning the power of the majority!

When humans have differences between single subjective opinions, we aim for the best compromize by quantitatively: voting, or polling, or surveying - call it what you like.

For example, there are 435 seats in the lower house congress, and 100 seats in the upper house.
Of the 435 in the lower house, something like 237 go to the Republicans, 197 go to the Democrats, with 5 vacant seats.
Of the 100 in the upper house, 52 Republican, 46 Democrats, and 2 Independents.

What happens if we have a legal dispute, and there are differences in opinion?
We have the District Court, and so many members of the jury may vote this way, and so many vote that way.
Ultimately, when we reach the highest Supreme Court, there are nine or so judges, and a number of judges may vote this way, and a number may vote the other way etc.

With automobiles, manufacturers internal polling is done.

Now, you and I have each have individual personal opinions, however when it comes to the collective opinion of the masses [which is what really counts], theoretically you and I could construct a national mass poll, but in practice, it is a very big, time consuming and costly job to do.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...018-model.html
Referring to this thread above, from TangoRed's Post #853 on Page 57 to Page 113, I can count 22 posters who like the 5LS styling, 24 posters who dislike the 5LS styling, and 7 in the middle ground who are unsure.

It is easy to count the number of positive/negative posters this way.
However, it is NOT the same as conducting a national poll.
Because ClubLexus Forum posters generally have superior knowledge of motor cars, hence are not as heavily drawn by name/badge and styling.
On the otherhand, the mass public who make the bulk of the purchase, generally don't have as sound a knowledge, and are much more heavily drawn by name/badge and styling, and would be much more critical of the forthcoming 5LS' styling!

The important point to understand is that subjective individual opinions are NOT a dead end; it is not as simple as that.
Our civilization has learnt to deal with differences in opinion on a day to day and hour to hour basis, all around the world.
Differences in opinion are resolved by compromize via objective and quantitative democracy via voting, ie polling...

Solara350

I like the new Grill, stop being conservative, sometimes we have to change from this to that from there to here same as clothing, the 80s paint was Flare and then the 90s skinny and then 2000 Flare and then skinny that's how love goes boyz learn to accept as long as there is always something new !

SW17LS

Yep I read an article that my pleated pants are going to be in again. Go me.

mmarshall

I was referring to that type of styling from a visibility standpoint...not from individual preferences or subjective opinions. Heck, for that matter, as far as personal opinions go, I've met people who actually liked the Pontiac Aztek LOL. But, when you cannot physically see out of something from the drivers seat, and have to (excessively) rely on cameras and electronic toys to even back up, I'd say it's time for some different thinking in the styling department.

I not only can use Subaru, but just did....accurately. If you look at the numbers of Foresters and Outbacks sold, they are far from niche vehicles ( and, on top of that, I owned one myself for almost 6 years). Now, for the WRX and STi, yes, I'll agree with that....they're niche, basically appealing to the pocket-rocket crowd. No offense (and I'm not saying this to be rude or as a personal barb).......but to call Foresters and Outbacks niche vehicles is nonsense.

SW17LS

With cameras and electronic aides, I can't remember the last time I test drove a car and it even occurred to me that there was any issue with visibility. Really...I drive a lot of different cars and I'm trying to think of a time and I can't think of one.

The Forrester perhaps not as much, but the Outback is the quintessential niche vehicle...its the purest example of a niche vehicle I can think of. Its a raised AWD station wagon...there is nothing "mainstream" about it.

mmarshall

...Well, that part I don't agree with, considering the numbers the Outback sells in, and that it is not alone in sharing its basic type of layout with the Audi All-Road, Volvo XC-70, and (maybe) an AWD Buick Regal wagon next year...though the Regal probably will not be on a raised-suspension. Right now, the Outback (and, for years) has been the top-selling wagon in the U.S. It has become the quintessial, poster-boy snow car for a reason.

BTW, I may wait and look at the new Regal wagon this fall before springing for my next new ride. It may not quite have the LaCrosse's base-version's smooth ride, but, from what I've seen in the images, it will have a far better shifter, and, of course, Opel quality....perhaps the last new Buick to do so.

SW17LS

Just because the Outback sells in high numbers doesn't mean it isn't a niche vehicle. Its the only vehicle that is what it is number one, it has a huge and loyal following. The Audi Allroad, Volvo XC70 are also niche vehicles, and they are considerably more expensive than the Outback, and they don't sell nearly as well.

Its the top selling wagon in the US...and also the only non luxury wagon in the US. Who else makes a wagon? Nobody I can think of. Thats why the Outback is a niche vehicle.

Definition of "niche":

I would call the only AWD raised wagon in the US (and the only non luxury wagon) the definition of a niche.

Carmaker1

Always interesting perspectives from you peteharvey, to say the least. Not everyone agrees on everything, but it's always good when certain things are brought up in discussion. If anyone doesn't want to read below (because of TL;DR) , please just skip past my comment then.




Toyota and Honda (all Japanese pretty much) were very aspirational during the late 1970s and 1980s in regards to their approach towards product development. The original Legend had been designed during November 1981 to April 1983 parallel to the Rover partnership for the 800, when at the time the only modern premium offerings from Europe (or worth to the US coasts) were the 7-Series (E23), 5-Series (E28), 3-Series (E30), aging W123 E-Class, and all-new Mercedes-Benz 190. Marrying the styling language for the Prelude with the new 190, is what lead to both the 1986 Legend and 1986 Accord, which both car designs were signed off by late 1983.

The second generation Legend was (believe it or not) a tech-laden masterpiece, slightly letdown by its FWD (longitudinal) and V6 (at the time). Of course, development for the second generation Legend began in 1986, after Japanese launch of JDM Honda version in October 1985 and just as the U.S. showrooms were getting Acura examples. By the end of 1987, they reached this point with design of what became known as the KA7 and also that of a sports car in development (later named NS-X).


1987 KA7 1:1 Proposal KA7 Final (Design was frozen in Spring 1988)




1987 NSX 1:1 Design Proposal



The new Legend favoured the look of a more aerodynamic Japanese BMW, with the regal appearance of a Mercedes. Upon final freeze in 1988 of both the sports car and flagship range, serious testing and engineering took over for the next 2+ years into 1990, plus a special concept debut in Chicago for the former.



By early 1991, after Honda approved so many aspirational redesign programs and entries for the early 1990s, it was now setting in that they were losing serious money and had to make cutbacks in a fluctuating economy. Especially with the Acura range, even just after completing design of the quad-light 3rd generation Integra at the time, not even due for roughly 2 1/2 years as a 1994 model. They started with what was going to be the Legend and Vigor (introduced spring 1991) successors, which entered development in 1991.



In early 1992, Japan started getting their first shipments of an all-new land yacht from Mercedes-Benz, which had only seen minor changes since Japanese launch in 1980. The W140 caught on massively in Japan, that various Japanese nameplates essentially goaded their design departments into making their own copies of this car for mid-1990s offerings.



Honda designers likely zeroed in on this new flagship from Mercedes, also having prior knowledge about it since Geneva debut roughly a year earlier, plus the mid-size W124 E-Class and compact 190E (plus that of spy shots of C-Class). The end result of designer Tamotsu Okamato that was presented to management, being 1 of 2 proposals at the end of 1992, heavily favoured the popular W140 S-Class in a more compact, compromised, and mundane aesthetic with cues from the 1991 FS-X concept.



For some reason, it was good enough for Honda management, wanting to trim costs, kill a coupe variant. Prior to that, a next generation Vigor design was approved in mid-1992 favouring the FS-X concept shown at the Tokyo Motor Show in October 1991.



In 1994, a year after the new Acura Legend's design freeze, Acura was recommended the idea by Ketchum Advertising to utilize alphanumeric nomenclature for their line of new models in the next Vigor and Legend due in the 1995 calendar year as 1996 models. New nameplates of 2.5TL and 3.5RL were filed, changing Acura forever. Upon unveiling of the Vigor-replacing 1996 TL in early 1995, public response was mixed at most, but receptive enough (considering the Vigor's lack of popularity).



However, when the redesigned Legend made its debut in October 199, many people experienced serious disappointment. Although it had more tech and features, it was clearly a regression in styling and appeal. On December 5, 1995, Acura introduced the all-new 3.5RL flagship sedan that effectively replaced the Legend in North America.



Like the JDM market KA9 Honda Legend introduced 6 weeks earlier, it now offered a similar in-dash colour LCD screen GPS navigation system (JDM had it since 1990) and a number of other new features (plus more torque), but clearly differed from that of the sporting and aspirational first two generations of Legend. A manual transmission was no longer available only 4-speed auto.



The replacement for the Legend coupe, arrived in spring 1996 as the more downmarket transverse-engine CL coupe (previewed by CL-X concept '95 NAIAS) based on the Honda Accord. A Canadian-market EL of 1996 was a lacklustre bargain basement offering replacing the Integra sedan, based on the 1996 Civic and JDM Domani.



As you see, over the years the Acura continued in regression for years to come from bad decision making during the 1991-1995 period. Save for the idea in 1995 to develop a new utility vehicle as their rebadged SLX replacement on loan from Isuzu (decided in 1993).



In the late 1990s, things began to make a turnaround with product planning for the early 2000s, as they completed design work on a new 3-row crossover in 1997 (first of its kind), readied a new roadster (sold as a Honda from 1999), cut costs on the TL via 1998 Accord platform, completed design on an Integra replacement in 1998, refined the flagship RL's dowdy styling, and planned out a better executed CL coupe.



By 1999 a new design language began to further influence the design process for new premium products, which in 2000 resulted in designs for the 3rd generation TL and next Accord variants scheduled for the 2003 and 2004 model years. In late 2001, they approved a more inspired final design for the second generation RL (KB1), and introduced a heavily refreshed NSX and began planning a successor (previewed in 2003).



Acura reached a new peak by the 2005 model year, only going downhill from there. Despite so many well-designed products, Acura ventured towards developing a terrible design language in 2004, that luckily the 2007 model year RDX and redesigned 2007 MDX CUVs escaped by virtue of earlier design freezes that year.



In 2006, they approved styling of the 4th generation TL and (2G) TSX (Accord) sedans, previewing new elements of these new designs in the form of the Advanced Sedan Concept, and the facelifted RL. In the meantime, the RSX coupe was discontinued, the CL never returned, NSX replacement was pushed back and heavily revised, after the 2005 discontinuation and start of a 10-year long hiatus.



In 2008, Acura unveiled the redesigned 2009 TL and TSX, plus that of the heavily revised 2009 RL flagship. Plans for a RWD successor to the flagship were underway, plus that of a V10-powered NSX successor. The global crash in 2008 destroyed the more aspirational plans, as the 2009 model year cars were driven into Acura showrooms across North America. Since the only real commitments have been the NSX program, separating the RL from TL by creating larger RLX (2013) and smaller TLX (2014), then destroying the TSX, to allow strategic placement of the ILX (introduced 2012).



The NSX did arrive, at least. For the 2018 model year, the RLX will reportedly receive its first facelift, as will the JDM Honda Legend (KC1), and that of the TLX introduced in 2014 as '15 model. A model named WLX that is essentially a production Precision Concept, is coming in 2019. One doesn't know for this brand, what will happen to take it forward and these products push things upwards. In conclusion they still pale in comparison to Lexus by a long shot, as time doesn't stand still for anyone.

peteharvey

Excellent post on styling and design language cmk1!
Kind of reiterates much of what I said, however one thing you and I forgot to say was that the all Acura NSX II looks great!
All Acuras ought to have styling cues from the new NSX II if Acura is to bounce back.
I like the NSX II even more than the forthcoming Lexus LC Coupe.
However, I suspect that its numerous sharp creases may age faster.

BrownPride

I like the styling of the TLX a lot. Idk why they don't sell more, it probably has to do something with the price jacking up $10,000 to get AWD. At that point you've entered Infiniti Q50, Lexus IS350, and German sedan territory. Every one of the competitors has nicer interiors and superior performance.

Speaking of the NSX...I don't really care for it. Sweet looking car but it doesn't look ANYTHING like the original NSX! It should have been a homage to the original car by being styled like a modern version of the original. To add to that, the interior is unimpressive and the performance side hasn't gotten a great response from the press either. Overall, for a car costing more than an R8 and many variants of the 911, the new NSX sucks big time.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

Wow didn't know that. Loved the concept, this could be a nice flagship for Acura to slot above the RLX. I imagine it would fight the XTS, Continental, etc.. with a turbocharged V6 and optional AWD.