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Another thing about Lexus grill is that the entire nose sticks out way too far. It's out of proportion to me. The RX is a prime example, although they seem to be doing this with all of the newer cars.
It looks ungainly and front heavy. It's like they're trying to accentuate the spindle grill even more.
The RX, IS and GS all have this front heavy, stick out design. The new LS has it too.
It's like a double negative. I would shrink the spindle grill, make it more flush and not as pointy and chop off two or three inches from the nose in general.
yes that picture accentuates the relatively short wheelbase, the huge long front and rear overhangs, and the vertical front. doesn't seem like "l-finesse" any longer.
but fwd doesn't have to mean short distance from front wheel arch to front door like the rx.
for grins i decided to put lexus rc350 and audi a5 side by side. i believe the audi is based on a fwd platform, but using quattro for better perfomance/handling.
look how similar the setup is:
The A5 isn't a great example because while Audi does use a FWD setup in the A5 in some markets, its a longitudinal motor setup not a transverse setup, so it has more similar proportions to the RC than a FWD/transverse car.
Better example in a coupe would be say a Toyota Solara:
Or a Buick Cascada:
Its a question of engine layout more than its drive wheels, but 98% of FWD vehicles are transverse platform.
Note below. #1 is a RWD/longitudinal setup. #2 is a FWD/Longitudinal setup (rare), most FWD Audis are this way, as was the Acura Legend as an example. #2 is a transverse/fwd setup (which 98% of FWD cars and FWD based AWD cars are. Note how the placement of the engine and the front wheels will effect the design and look of the front of the car.
As you can see in this comparison of an A6 and a 5 Series, Audis do exhibit some FWD look to their design:
Can I just stop everybody before we bark up the wrong tree.
We've talked about FWD vs RWD, and that's great.
Above, we are now talking about transverse vs longitudinal mount, and that's great too.
Talking about longitudinal mount is better than talking about RWD, but it's still not right.
There are actually two major types of longitudinal mounts.
1) Firstly, is the longitudinal mount FWD in front of the front axle, as used by the Audi 80/100/A4 and 100/200/A6 from as early as the 1980's, and even the 1970's, but NOT used in the recently succeeded 2009-16 Audi A4 B8, NOR is it used in the all new 2016-23 Audi A4 B9.
Nor was this used in the 1990-95 Acura Legend, nor the 1995-04 Acura RL.
It looks something like this Porsche 911 flipped diagram below; I had to flip to illustrate, because I couldn't find what I was looking for.
Actually, Steve's little Diagram Number 2 above is what I mean.
2) Secondly, there is the longitudinal mount FWD above the front axle [for a near 50/50 weight distribution] as used by the 1990-95 Acura Legend and 1995-04 Acura RL, and the previous gen 2009-16 A4 B8, and the all new Audi A4 B9.
The old Acura Legends, and the old Acura RL's used a RWD-like front transaxle design, with an internal drive shaft going forwards, to drive the differential for the front wheels.
In the diagram below, imagine if the propeller shaft running to the rear differential, the rear differential itself, and the rear drive shafts were all deleted.
Here is the 1990-95 & 1995-04 Acura Legend/RL's engine and transaxle below.
Notice how the front differential & front drive shafts is below the V6 crankshaft for a massive wheelbase?
Notice how the Legend/RL's design actually has the engine positioned behind the front axle even more than Audi's old and Audi's new longitudinal mounts below.
With Audi, the recent 2009-16 A4 B8 & the latest 2016-23 A4 B9 has cleverly repositioned the front differential & front drive shafts, NO longer behind the flywheel, but NOW in front of the flywheel, [though NOT as far forward as the Acura Legend/Acura RL's].
Look hard below at old and new.
Hence, the 2009-16 B8 & 2016-23 B9 A4's enjoy a wheelbase that is a whopping 6" longer than its predecessors, with a more neutral 55:45 weight distribution.
Audi's traditional front diff and front axle behind the flywheel/clutch/torque converter for a short wheelbase with long front overhang.
Audi's new redesign with the front diff and front axle between the engine and the flywheel for a 6" longer wheelbase, a shorter front overhang, and a more favorable 55/45 weight distribution.
Look hard at the position of the front diff and the front drive shafts.
Thus, Audi's new front transaxle design & MLB platform with the front diff and front drive shafts positioned between the engine and the flywheel gives a longer wheelbase and shorter front overhang, however it is still no match for the longer wheelbase and shorter front overhang with near 50/50 weight distribution of the traditional RWD designs like the E Class, 5 Series and GS.
1990-2004 Acura Legend/RL versus 2009- Audi MLB platform design?
The old Acura longitudinal mount FWD design gives a longer wheelbase for a near 50/50 weight distribution, but it has a slightly higher center of gravity because the V6 crankshaft sits above the front differential.
The new Audi MLB longitudinal mount FWD design gives a slightly lower center of gravity, but has a slightly shorter wheelbase for a slighter nose heavier design.
The E Class, 5 Series & GS RWD/AWD use a design that is very similar to the old 1990-2004 Acura Legend and Acura RL FWD above, as opposed to Audi's MLB platform design with the front diff and front drive shafts emanating from in between the engine and the flywheel.
At the end of the day, it really isn't about FWD vs RWD.
Nor is it about transverse vs longitudinal mount.
It is actually about the actual positioning of the engine relative to the axle for a short/long wheelbase, and near 50/50 weight distribution...
.
The spindle grill is polarizing. I don't mind it and I've learned to appreciate it, but that's the thing, most people typically don't buy cars that they have to study and learn to appreciate like it's some form of modern art.
Car buying is about instantly recognizing a style and design that you like and desire. People glance at a car and they either love it or hate it, BUT, those first impressions will drive and bias them, especially if it's during a car purchase decision.
Unless there's other overriding factors that puts aside the look, like reliability or performance or price, that look is kind of hard to overcome.
In any case, I think in their effort to shed blandness, they may have went too far. Look at Audi, they are about as cookie cutter as they come and some would consider their style boring and conservative, but frankly I think that's why they're doing so well.
You spend quite a lot of time repeating the exact same complaints about Lexus in post after post after post. Maybe just put the bullet points in your signature and enjoy all the time that you could free up by doing so.
You spend quite a lot of time repeating the exact same complaints about Lexus in post after post after post. Maybe just put the bullet points in your signature and enjoy all the time that you could free up by doing so.
You spend quite a lot of time repeating the exact same complaints about Lexus in post after post after post.
Originally Posted by SW15LS
And just a year ago he paid $80,000 for one lol
Well, after paying that kind of money, perhaps one is somewhat justified if he or she has some beefs. I'd agree, though, that, sometimes, enough is enough.
Personally, I like the spindle grille and so does my wife which is why she liked our current IS better than the other cars in its class that we were considering like BMW, Audi and MB. I also don't have an issue with grille sticking out further in the front with the exception of the GX460. I like all of the angles of the GX with the exception of the side profile which is where it looks like the front sticks out further than the other implementations of the grille on other models.
Neither do I. Yes, I owned one, but I don't think that is coloring my perspective. I still see them on the street and they still turn my head. I actually think the current GS F-Sport, as much as they tried to emphasize the spindle grill and add the crazy taillights, looks more run-of-the-mill for some reason. The older one had a nice, clean shape that looks more sporty and (IMO) has endured quite well. The pic shown in the earlier post was of a non- F Sport, which was pretty boring from the beginning.
With a forthcoming Lexus 5LS with an Infinity-like rear end styling, and now with a RWD multilink suspension and part aluminium chassis Lexus GS line that's about to be axed, Lexus is really becoming the next Acura!
Rather than being focused on quality, they are now more focused on cheap FWD sales and money.
Just because Akio is the grandson of the founder doesn't necessarily mean that he is the man to lead Toyota Motor Corporation.
Since Akio's takeover in 2009, he has changed TMC in unnecessary ways.
Sad, because if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Now I'm gonna have to start seriously test driving the E and C Class Benzes...
Last edited by peteharvey; 03-17-17 at 10:52 AM.
Reason: Grammar
Can I just stop everybody before we bark up the wrong tree.
We've talked about FWD vs RWD, and that's great.
Above, we are now talking about transverse vs longitudinal mount, and that's great too.
Talking about longitudinal mount is better than talking about RWD, but it's still not right.
There are actually two major types of longitudinal mounts.
1) Firstly, is the longitudinal mount FWD in front of the front axle, as used by the Audi 80/100/A4 and 100/200/A6 from as early as the 1980's, and even the 1970's, but NOT used in the recently succeeded 2009-16 Audi A4 B8, NOR is it used in the all new 2016-23 Audi A4 B9.
Nor was this used in the 1990-95 Acura Legend, nor the 1995-04 Acura RL.
It looks something like this Porsche 911 flipped diagram below; I had to flip to illustrate, because I couldn't find what I was looking for.
Actually, Steve's little Diagram Number 2 above is what I mean.
2) Secondly, there is the longitudinal mount FWD above the front axle [for a near 50/50 weight distribution] as used by the 1990-95 Acura Legend and 1995-04 Acura RL, and the previous gen 2009-16 A4 B8, and the all new Audi A4 B9.
The old Acura Legends, and the old Acura RL's used a RWD-like front transaxle design, with an internal drive shaft going forwards, to drive the differential for the front wheels.
In the diagram below, imagine if the propeller shaft running to the rear differential, the rear differential itself, and the rear drive shafts were all deleted.
Here is the 1990-95 & 1995-04 Acura Legend/RL's engine and transaxle below.
Notice how the front differential & front drive shafts is below the V6 crankshaft for a massive wheelbase?
Notice how the Legend/RL's design actually has the engine positioned behind the front axle even more than Audi's old and Audi's new longitudinal mounts below.
With Audi, the recent 2009-16 A4 B8 & the latest 2016-23 A4 B9 has cleverly repositioned the front differential & front drive shafts, NO longer behind the flywheel, but NOW in front of the flywheel, [though NOT as far forward as the Acura Legend/Acura RL's].
Look hard below at old and new.
Hence, the 2009-16 B8 & 2016-23 B9 A4's enjoy a wheelbase that is a whopping 6" longer than its predecessors, with a more neutral 55:45 weight distribution.
Audi's traditional front diff and front axle behind the flywheel/clutch/torque converter for a short wheelbase with long front overhang.
Audi's new redesign with the front diff and front axle between the engine and the flywheel for a 6" longer wheelbase, a shorter front overhang, and a more favorable 55/45 weight distribution.
Look hard at the position of the front diff and the front drive shafts.
Thus, Audi's new front transaxle design & MLB platform with the front diff and front drive shafts positioned between the engine and the flywheel gives a longer wheelbase and shorter front overhang, however it is still no match for the longer wheelbase and shorter front overhang with near 50/50 weight distribution of the traditional RWD designs like the E Class, 5 Series and GS.
1990-2004 Acura Legend/RL versus 2009- Audi MLB platform design?
The old Acura longitudinal mount FWD design gives a longer wheelbase for a near 50/50 weight distribution, but it has a slightly higher center of gravity because the V6 crankshaft sits above the front differential.
The new Audi MLB longitudinal mount FWD design gives a slightly lower center of gravity, but has a slightly shorter wheelbase for a slighter nose heavier design.
The E Class, 5 Series & GS RWD/AWD use a design that is very similar to the old 1990-2004 Acura Legend and Acura RL FWD above, as opposed to Audi's MLB platform design with the front diff and front drive shafts emanating from in between the engine and the flywheel.
At the end of the day, it really isn't about FWD vs RWD.
Nor is it about transverse vs longitudinal mount.
It is actually about the actual positioning of the engine relative to the axle for a short/long wheelbase, and near 50/50 weight distribution...
.
With a forthcoming Lexus 5LS with an Infinity-like rear end styling, and now with a RWD multilink suspension and part aluminium chassis Lexus GS line that's about to be axed, Lexus is really becoming the next Acura!
Rather than being focused on quality, they are now more focused on cheap FWD sales and money.
Just because Akio is the grandson of the founder doesn't necessarily mean that he is the man to lead Toyota Motor Corporation.
Since Akio's takeover in 2009, he has changed TMC in unnecessary ways.
Sad, because if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Now I'm gonna have to start seriously test driving the E and C Class Benzes...
I've been biting my tongue, but since you brought it up I also see the new LS following the path of the M37/Q70, which has been a sales failure. I think when people think "flagship", they don't expect lots of curves and swoopy designs, which has been one of Infiniti's challenges. That is better left to the niche models like the Mercedes CLS and Audi A7 "coupes". I do see a lot of the Infiniti Q70 in the LS, and that's not a good thing. I really hope the LS is better able to pull it off and still attracts loyalists.
I've been biting my tongue, but since you brought it up I also see the new LS following the path of the M37/Q70, which has been a sales failure. I think when people think "flagship", they don't expect lots of curves and swoopy designs, which has been one of Infiniti's challenges. That is better left to the niche models like the Mercedes CLS and Audi A7 "coupes". I do see a lot of the Infiniti Q70 in the LS, and that's not a good thing. I really hope the LS is better able to pull it off and still attracts loyalists.
The new LS does remind me of Infiniti from the side, and call me a snob (I've only owned my car since Oct.), but I've always considered Lexus > Infiniti. I tend to agree with you about the flagship car. Those are two good examples, the CLS and A7. Would I want a CLS AMG if given to me? You bet. A S7? Not really, do not like its looks.
btw my sis in-law got a '17 A4 same color as yours, and I told her to get the sport package and the nougat interior. She didn't listen on either point and went non sport and black.
call me a snob (I've only owned my car since Oct.), but I've always considered Lexus > Infiniti.
lol, it's all relative, the guy with the s-class has always considered mercedes > lexus. congrats on the lexus though!
meanwhile, back to lexus vs acura...
lexus needs to dump the CT (it's their 'ilx'), the ES needs to offer AWD (the TLX has AWD of course), the GS needs to be made more special, the GX/LX need replacing and they need a mainstream 3 row ute ASAP. the new LC and LS elevate/keep lexus above acura.
03-05-17, 09:13 PM
congrats on the lexus though! 
