mmarshall

When I did my recent Condensed-Review of the new Mazda CX-5, there were a few comments comparing it to (and asking my opinion of) the new Nissan Rogue, one of the CX-5's main competitors in the American market. The Rogue, of course, is a new design, though it has been sold alongside the last-generation Rogue, (renamed the Rogue Select) for a while. Nissan is phasing out the last-generation Rogue Select (considered a 2015 model), and, when they are gone, that will be it. The Rogue Select was a decent, though dull and appliance-like, piece of basic small-SUV transportation, and, to be honest, I wasn't terribly impressed with it.

Nor am I terribly impressed with its replacement, though it does seem to be at least reasonably well-made. Though I briefly looked at one at the January D.C. Auto Show, I didn't spend much time with it, and I thought I'd spend a little more time today checking them out. I inspected and/or sat inside a few different versions, interiors, and trim-lines, listing from 26K to 33K. The paint jobs were decent, over decent-grade sheet metal, though the color palate, except for the Cayenne Red, looked like the mortuary. The exterior trim was a strong point, smooth and well-applied, though the twin side-mirror housings didn't swivel and lock very slickly.

I decided against doing any test-drives today, for several reasons.........First, I wasn't doing an MM review per se. Second, I was a little fatigued and taking it easy for a few days after a very busy week last week. Third, the new Rogue's 2.5L in-line non turbo 4, CVT transmission, and general chassis/platform is essentially the same as the last Rogue Select (which I HAD test-driven), so I didn't really expect it to drive much differently. Fourth, dealerships in this area are typically quite busy on Saturdays (and this was a big dealership)...so I didn't want to go in and bother the salespeople or managers to get the key and plate.

Just as an aside note....the Board President of our Condo Association had a Rogue Select, and traded it for a new GMC Terrain. She's got two big Labrador Retrievers, a black one and a Golden one (absolutely wonderful dogs...I love them both), and she said that, after buying one, she just didn't like the Rogue Select, and that it didn't really have enough room for her dogs.

Overall, between the CX-5 and the new Rogue, there were just three things I liked better about the Rogue. First, it uses an (IMO, proper) temperature-gauge for the engine-coolant instead of the CX-5's cheap red and blue idiot-lights. Second, the cargo area, especially on the upper-trim levels, seems somewhat better-carpeted and better-finished on the Rogue.....and also has nice cubby-compartments under the trunk floor that the CX-5 lacks. The top-trim levels also offer a power rear hatch...I don't recall even the CX-5's Grand Touring version offering one. And, under the hood, the Rogue's 2.5L four doesn't have a big plastic cover on it like on the CX-5, so it's much easier to work on upper-engine parts. The engine, however, fits inside the rather small underhood compartment a little tightly....the CX-5 offers more underhood space.

But that's about it...on balance, I was definitely more impressed overall, with the CX-5. The Rogue's interior was roomy enough if you adjusted the seats way down for added headroom, but the CX-5 still seemed more space-efficient,especially in back. Nether one is really in the luxury class when it comes to trim, though the CX-5's interior, to me at least, looked more interesting and better-designed than the Rogue's, which set the two main gauges in a big semi-tunnel-housing. Interior hardware quality (and feel/sound of the door thinks when they closed (were about the same in both vehicles....though the Rogue had nice built-in vertical door-grabs on the front doors. The Rogue's trim looked and felt rather plasticky, even with the imitation carbon-fiber on the dark interiors. The two of them, like with most mainstream Japanese manufacturers, have the same standard warranty....5/60 on the drivetrain and 3/36 bumper-to-bumper. Consumer Reports gives the CX-5 a Better-than-Average reliability rating......the Rogue, Average.

So, if it were my money, I'd probably choose the CX-5 over the Rogue, even though I don't like the CX-5's idiot-lights and road noise.

And, as Always, Happy Car-Shopping.

MM

Toys4RJill

I think the Rogue is for that Nissan buyer who loves the brand. Same thing for the CX-5.

mmarshall

True to some extent, but, the Rogue, overall, seems more of a basic-transportation appliance, where the CX-5 has some zip, especially in Sport mode. And the CX-5 isn't hobbled with a CVT like the Rogue. Again, I admit I didn't test-drive the new version of the Rogue, but its drivetrain/chassis stats look pretty similar to the old one, at least on paper.

Sulu

The Rogue's better cargo compartment with its nice underfloor cubbies and the poorer space-efficiency compared to the CX-5 may be related, and is likely the result of the Rogue being designed to offer a 3rd row seat.

That 2-piece cargo area cover shown in the picture is due to the availability of a 3rd row: The forward cover would be the 3rd-row seat or the cover of a cubby for those models that do not have the 3rd row; the rear cover would be the spare tire access.

Toys4RJill

It is interesting that the CX-5 starts at $2K less than a Rogue and almost $3000 less than a Rav4.

LeX2K

Looks like it was styled in 2004.

Aron9000

I've never been impressed with any Nissan that has a 4 cylinder and CVT. I just don't like how CVT's drive and the sound of their 4 cylinder is really annoying.

Marshall, you should drive the Rav4, especially since it has been refreshed this year. My sister has a 2013 or 2014(first year of the new body style), and I must say that its a pretty impressive vehicle for the price. The amount of room and space is pretty staggering. Quality wise it rides great, has 50k miles on it and not a single squeak, rattle, or unscheduled trip to the dealer. Paint is holding up well, its black and doesn't recieve the best of care. I washed it the other day, it still doesn't have any swirls in it amazingly enough. About the only thing I don't like is the slow, lifeless steering, they could've done better on that.

mmarshall

Nissan does CVTs probably as well or better as anyone else in the mainstream-manufacturer class, but that still doesn't necessarily make up for all of their shortcomings. And, though more reliable now than when they first debuted, CVTs from all manufacturers have had more than their share of TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) and long-term reliability issues.

OK...I'll take that as a suggestion. I assume you mean the gas version, right, not the Hybrid?

The average Toyota product is usually not going to require many (if any) repairs in the first 50K miles.

For the price, it's hard to beat the gloss and quality of an average Toyota paint job...Audi does, but of course, at a significantly higher price. Toyotas, in general, seem to get the same painting process in the factory that the typical Lexus product does.....that's unusual in the low-priced field.


If you want to keep the swirls out of it, though, I recommend hand-washing, and flushing all of the sand/salt/dirt/abrasives off thoroughly with a hose (especially in all the small cracks and corners and in the hidden lips underneath and in the wheel-wells) before you start rubbing with hand-pressure. Otherwise, you just rub the abrasives into the finish. If you have hard, stubborn dried bird-droppings, soak them first with warm water for a while to loosen them up, then gently wipe them off so the paint isn't scratched (do not use hot water on a cold day, because it can crack the glass). It you do end up getting swirls or damage from bird-droppings or other sources, sometimes SCRATCH OUT will take care of them if they are not too deep into the clearcoat finish. I highly recommend it....but make sure you are using the scratch and swirl remover, not the SCRATCH OUT rubbing compound.




Welcome to the world of electric power-steering pumps. With electric units, tt is more difficult (though not impossible), to get the former tactile-feel steering that made driving a BMW so pleasurable and outstanding.....heck, for that matter, even BMW itself isn't doing it anymore.

There are three basic reasons, BTW, that you see so many electric units today. One, they place less of a drag on the engine and give (nominally) better fuel-mileage....though the average difference is probably less than 1 MPG. Two, they are less-complex than hydraulic units, and, of course, don't leak fluid, require as much service, and have fewer parts to fail. Three, the units and hardware themselves take up less space under the hood...a factor with today's smaller and more streamlined underhood space.

Aron9000

1. CVT's- Good point about reliablity with CVT's. Nissan has had all kinds of issues with their transmissions holding up. Some of them were defective when shipped from the factory(late model Pathfinders) and have had several TSB's and recalls.

2. If you drive a Rav4, drive whatever you wish, but do a comparision of how much of a premium the hybrid goes for. I'm curious as to if the superior gas mileage would be worth what I assume is at least a $3,000 premium over a comparably equipped normal version.

3. I swear Scratch Out must pay you a retainer lol. As for me, I've never used the stuff, but I do know a thing or two about washing a car. Did it professionally for 4 years in high school and college, I'm pretty handy with some compound and a buffer.

4. I've driven other cars with electric power steering, and I swear they felt a lot more "sporty" with more road feel/feedback. The Rav4, you can chuck it into a highway off ramp at 40mph or 60mph and the steering feels exactly the same, its like driving a video game. It tracks straight and the car doesn't roll over on its door handles in turns, but man its like they intentionally made it numb and not fun.

mmarshall

Automakers seem to be using them because they are light, compact, cheap to produce with few moving parts, and provide a relatively easy way to bump up average MPG figures for the government.

OK. I'll probably get around to that in the next couple of days......maybe this afternoon. In the meantime, you can check prices for yourself, on any specific model and equipment you want, with Toyota's Build-Your-Own feature. I'm sure you've used them before.

http://www.toyota.com/configurator/#...16/series/rav4

http://www.toyota.com/configurator/#...ies/rav4hybrid

Thanks, but I don't need any more paychecks LOL. I'm doing just fine with my pension and tax-free bond/mutual fund income, even in retirement....especially after just getting big Federal and state tax-refunds back.

While I certainly respect your knowledge/experience, try a bottle of Scratch-Out, and you will only add to that already-good knowledge.

An old colleague of mine (he's since retired) was Manager of the wash/detailing department at a local Toyota dealership (the one where we bought bought my Celica and my late Mom's Corolla a number of years ago). When I showed him what Scratch-Out could do, he offered me a job right on the spot LOL.

Oh, for sure there are some decent electric ones, but I have yet to see any new electric power steering unit provide the same tactile-feel of older hydraulic BMWs and Porsches. You could practically steer them blindfolded.

bagwell

Isn't 170hp in the Rogue pretty underpowered versus every other competitive SUV? I wouldn't want one for that reason alone.

JDR76

I'd consider 170 pretty much class-competitive.

CR-V: 185 hp
RAV4: 176 hp
CX-5: 155/184 hp
Tucson: 164/175 hp
Sportage: 181 hp

Sulu

True electric power-assist steering (EPAS) systems do not have pumps; they use the electric motor to directly provide power assistance. No hydraulics at all in the system so no pump is required.

Hybrid electrohydraulic power steering, however, uses the electric motor to replace the engine-driven hydraulic pump; the rest of the power steering system is hydraulic. With the electric pump, the drag of the normal hydraulic power steering system is removed from the engine, yet you still have the refinement of the hydraulic system that has come about from years and years of improvements.

I am by no means an expert on power steering systems but I have read some stuff about the difference between hydraulic and electric power steering systems. I have read that where you mount the power-assist electric motor (on the steering column itself or on the steering rack) can make a difference in feel. I also understand that it takes deliberate design effort to design electric power-assist systems -- whether power-assisted steering or power-assisted control surfaces on aircraft -- in order to design in some (artificial) force-feedback.

All of this boils down to one indisputable fact: hydraulic power-assisted steering has been on the market for many more years than EPAS systems, giving the manufacturers that much more time to improve and refine the hydraulic systems. Improvement and refinement of EPAS will come in time; we are already seeing some results on those premium brands for which steering feel is important.

Mike should remember, as I do, how bad the power steering systems were in mass-market cars of 30+ years ago. I remember that, despite how refined a car our first Camry (first generation, 1984 model) was, I did not particularly like to drive it because there was no feel in the power steering and it would wander all over the place on the highway (similar to my 2010 Corolla with EPAS), making for a tiring drive.

If I remember, there is a very small premium for the RAV4 Hybrid on the American market; the premium seems to be larger on the Canadian market.

But the premium means little to a number of hybrid drivers; it is just another optional drivetrain, just as the V6 once was on the RAV4. True hybrid vehicle fans do not buy a hybrid to save money; as you said, it seems illogical to spend a premium in order to save money. We buy a hybrid for what it offers, just as a RAV4 V6 driver would have chosen to drive the very powerful V6 for what it offers.

We hybrid fans buy hybrids to save fuel (saving money at the pump is merely a nice side benefit), and knowing that saving fuel reduces the emissions that are spewed into our local (micro) environment. It is satisfying in itself that I can drive a large car (ESh) yet use only as much fuel as I once spent on my compact (read, much smaller) Corolla. It is also satisfying to know that when stopped in stop-and-go driving, we are not putting out any emissions at all, unlike all the other single-driver cars and trucks out there.

Aron9000

I was just on Toyota's website, the hybrid is a $4000 premium over the basic LE model. It forces you into the next trim level up XLE and forces AWD on you as well. Although if you were going to buy the XLE AWD anyways, its a great value because then its only $700 more than the regular engine version. Still, I think $29,000 is a bit steep for a Rav4, espcially considering you still have cloth seats at that price. I think my sister paid $23k or so for her Rav4 a couple years ago.

I still find it weird paying more for the economy minded engine option(same thing if you bought a VW diesel, they charge you more for one). I'm just old school I guess, the optional engine should have more cylinders and way more power. V6 vs V8, 4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder. I know on some cars like an Accord, Camry, Camaro, or Mustang, the optional engine totally transforms the car into a hot rod.

I was also suprised that Toyota offers some fun colors They have a nice electric blue metallic color, a metallic red, and an IMO awesome metallic orange color.

mmarshall

Yes, Thanks, I'm aware of that. That was a typo...I meant electric steering units, not necessarily pumps.







One does not even have to go back that far. The first true-electric unit I can remember sampling, on the plastic-bodied 2002 Saturn VUE, was just awful. It was like driving a vehicle with the front wheels on pure glare ice....road feel was that lacking.

But, yeah, the hydraulic steering units of the 1960's-vintage cars that I learned to drive on left plenty to be desired...along with the recirculating-ball systems that they were hooked to. Recirculating-ball systems tended to develop slop and free-play in the center with age....a fault that rack-and-pinion systems generally cured. And most compacts, back then, did not have power steering at all...generally leaving it to larger, heavier vehicles. Even today, the smallest and lightest of vehicles, such as the Mazda Miata and Lotus Elise, come with straight manual, unassisted steering....that's one reason why they are so much fun to drive in the twisties.