coolsaber

If I needed a muscle car but from a european brand, yea i`d pick AMG or just buy something with a bowtie

If I need something in the corner carving department I`d pick up a porsche. If I needed a porsche but wanted it to be cheaper I`d pick up a bimmer.

Not to fanboy, but sit in a C-class and one falls drowsy. Sit in a 3 series and one takes the long winding road home :P

cino

iTrader: (1)

I don't want to comment of which brand has more car enthusiasts. MB is definitely going driving focused route. Cadillac is able to do so while being a small player is because of Chevy.

I used to adore BMW. A friend of mine has mint condition yellow E36 M3, I drool over it every time I see the car. Look at their lineup today. All I can say is "gah-barge".

BMW design is becoming Audi's, same sausage different length (So is Mercedes Benz). I really hope M2 is going to set BMW back on track.

GSCT

It makes me really nervous if Lexus is focusing on being # 1. That's what got Toyota all bent out of shape a few years ago and IMO was a contributing factor to Volkswagen's diesel duplicity. If BMW wants to claim first place and is futzing numbers to do it, let them keep at it. Lexus needs to concentrate on and continue to introduce great cars like the LC, RC F and the new RX and NX and eventually the numbers will be indisputable.

My0gr81

@cino agreed BMW had its mojo during the e36, e39, e46 and e60 chassis era. Even the e90 wasn't bad except for cr4ppy interior and questionable engine reliability. Fxx chassis, let's just say it's f'ed.

MattyG

Don't get hysterical. I merely posed a counter-argument to cool-aide drinking fansters who don't like to hear critiques. It's okay. Keep selling Lexus down at the dealership or whatever. This thread has already deteriorated because simple counterpoints get answered with shrieks of out-of-context comparisons and endless tail-chasing. Enjoy.

peteharvey

But then one could tell BMW to keep coming up with cars with peaky in-line turbo power [while ironically the bread & butter 320i four cylinder can't catch a Camry V6], and BMW can keep on with the overweight and floaty new found chassis, and the odd niche model like the ugly i3, or grossly impractical i8.

Look, without making silly degrading comments like Lexus only sell RX/ES/NX's, while making out that BMW are superb at selling entry level 320i four cylinder cars that can't catch a Camry V6 while providing a floaty chassis despite a cabin size that voids men's reproductive organs etc - both BM and Lexus, and even Mercedes are doing superbly.

Greater sales or greater registrations, it's a dead heat.
Each marque has its good and bad points, and their sales are so close, with so little to choose between them.
Pick whichever make or model, or pick whichever set of pros and cons best suits your individual needs, wants and tastes.

It's a draw, and Matty shouldn't have tried to put Lexus down, to put BM up...
.

MattyG

The reason people vilify any contrarian opinion on any online forum is that these boards often resort to cheap cheerleading exercises and deteriorate into nonsense once the discussion gets into semantics and hair-splitting.

The original source headline for this thread could have been written any number of ways:

1. Lexus Enthusiasts Say They've Beaten BMW in the Luxury Car Wars... and They're Loving It.

2. BMW May Sell Fewer Luxury Cars. Does it Matter?

3. Why Numbers Don't Mean Anything Until You Talk to Car Guys and Petrol Heads.

4. What's Behind the Decline of BMW's Corner Carving Heritage?

5. The Japanese Car Company That Rocked Mercedes Benz's cage Takes on BMW.

cino

iTrader: (1)

Regular C-class is exactly what people been complaining about bread butter BMW 320/328. Boring, uninspiring, anti-fun. To each of his own, I prefer the feel of C63 (last gen) to this gen M3/4. I've never been in this gen C63.

E92 IMO has one of BMW best engines, 4.0L V8, but the new S55 3.0L TT is vacuum cleaner.

And Yeah, 911 got spanked left and right by AMG GT. They had to refresh 911 early to take back what they lost.

mmarshall

The older BMW suspensions, except for the rock-hard M3, weren't harsh at all.....at least not by my standards. In fact, they were marvelous balances of ride/handling, even with low-profile 35-series Sport-package tires and suspensions. Few if any other auto-manufacturers in the world could equal that balance. And BMW's hydraulic power-steering was something to die for.....you could steer those cars blindfolded, simply by feel alone.


THAT's what has screwed up the newer models, not necessarily "softening" of the suspensions........... it's the steering. BMW, supposedly because of attempts to squeeze every last bit of MPG out of the engines to satisfy CAFE requirements, simply junked a superb-feel hydraulic system (which IMO they should have kept) for a more energy-efficient, lower-power-drag electric system. And, of course, with it, some of the former tactile steering-feel was lost in the process.

MattyG

The day I drove an E36 convertible with a manual transmission no less... on a narrow cobblestone road after pulling it out an underground garage and up a ramp. That told me a lot. Solid and smooth like it could pull forever and no cowl shake.

Yes a future money pit but a car that reflected its era. And that's after driving several muscle cars and VW's.

BrownPride

You can't be serious Despite me being critical of BMW, there is zero doubt that BMW is still the most performance-oriented mainstream luxury brand in the world. It has the largest enthusiast community of any automaker.

Compare any Mercedes side-by-side with it's BMW counterpart and its driving dynamics are lackluster in comparison. 2 vs. CLA? 2. 3/4 vs. C? Bimmer. 5er vs. E? 5er. 7er vs S? 7. And don't even get me started on Mercedes' mediocre SUVs. The GLE is especially mediocre to drive, ugly, and all their SUVs with the exception of the new GLC have horrendous interiors.

AMG Sport line is being folded by the way. Just because Mercedes offers a lot of AMG products does not mean it's a more performance-oriented brand than BMW. AMG has filled a couple more niches than the M division, but that doesn't mean anything.

BrownPride

I just can't come to sell my E90 because it has such telepathic steering and is just such a joy overall and beautiful and luxurious being black outside and terra (orange-brown) inside. Even the new 911 Porsche's steering isn't up to snuff in comparison. I know that CAFE requirements were the biggest push for electric steering, but I still feel that BMW isn't tuning their steering to be as performance-oriented as they can because they're trying to appeal to the masses. I think it's especially true that in Asian/Indian markets people don't give a d*mn about driving dynamics and just want cars for status symbols, so chasing foreign markets has certainly played a factor (btw my ethnicity is from one of those countries so please nobody call me racist ).

In regards to suspensions, I read that the current 5er's was turned to be softer than the E70 X5. Now the E70 had a stiff suspension, but it's disappointing when a hallmark sports sedan like the 5er is tuned to be softer than an SUV.

cino

iTrader: (1)

CLA isn't a direct competitor to 2 series. I don't know if you ever compare C63 to M3 side by side, but I would like to disagree, C63 redefine the segment for this generation. While S-class is luxury yacht on wheels, E is just as good as 5 series in its performance form.

And we're only talking about glorified family cars. Because BMW has nothing to compete with MB in "real" performance category.

And by horrendous interior, you mean you don't like the interior design, that is not MB problem, it is yours.

G Star

iTrader: (2)

Probably just because more BMWs were exported, on top of the "fleet vehicle" thing.

What is there to be nervous about? Lexus didn't even try to get #1 and sales wise, they didn't get it. They got top spot in registrations, which is a great thing. The NX really helped.

coolsaber

Off topic, but the current F11 spawns are quite toned down, hence why the competitors have coming in swinging and winning. GS and CTS knocked the crowned king quite hard.

However regardless of the complaining the articles the videos that all say BMW`s current 5 series has lost its way by unforgettably using the chassis from the 7 series its still selling quite well. Goes to show the industry might not have to worry if they sway from their stereotypes. The CTS, which was the second coming of the E39, was being sold with tons of factory incentives cause caddy could not move them. GS was not that bad, but Lexus really could not attract that many BMW owners.

In regards to the E and Mercedes models in generals, they are not tuned for performance by any means if you need handling.

The plebian E series is ugly (the upcoming version is polar opposite). MB had to stuff the trunk full of insane lease deals and trunk money to move the pre-refresh. Then post refresh (which was the biggest plastic surgery done on a MY) sold poor as well. The only talkable unit was the AMG version, which was brute, but would not take a corner for its life.

If you have had any seat time with the current CAMG you`ll find it trying to hard to be both a luxury cruiser but also sporty. Its not working, but the interior minus the nav display is out of this world.

Wtih MB, they just have realized the whole pay to play idea BMW has been using for a while. If you want to buy a 5 series you can get the badge only model (bare bones n20i 528i), get some added grunt in w/ 535i or full monty without the price tag wih the 550i, or full monty m5.

Regardless of the normal 5 you can go M sport with suspension addons, engine addons

AMG is launching AMG Sport etc to do the same, but its not there yet. The only way to get there at least for the short term is AMG versions only

Until then BMW is still much more of a focused performance brand