chromedome

I wouldn't say it's a puff piece, just aimed at the average reader. The Honda system uses a more powerful electric motor with a lighter battery pack (1.3 kWh lithium ion vs. 1.6 kWh NiMH for the ES300h) for more efficient city driving. The electric motor also doesn't get decoupled at highway speeds. The engine is connected to the driveshaft by a clutch whereas Toyota hybrids use a planetary gearset (no clutch) and the smaller motor-generator spins backwards to take up the engine's crank rotation at high speeds. There's a big efficiency difference there.

I appreciate Honda's system for its simplicity and elegance, Toyota's system for its smoothness. The new Honda system is a huge step up from the old IMA rubbish and it's easy to get 50 mpg on an Accord Hybrid whereas you need very careful driving to hit 45 mpg on a Camry hybrid.

Hopefully someone writes a more detailed look at all these hybrid systems, including the PHEV dual clutch stuff used by VW/Audi and the BMW i8. I hate the word eCVT being thrown around by car magazines when none of these hybrids use a cone and belt CVT. Heck, a Toyota hybrid doesn't feel the same as a Nissan or Honda CVT, so why call them the same?

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

hybrids are driven by the math challenged who like to brag about fuel economy which doesn't pay for the extra cost or you get to drive something as exciting as a cardboard box (like a prius).

chromedome

Hmm... You might want to tell that to a CT200h, ES300h, GS450h or LS600h driver. Heck let's throw in IS300h, RX450h and NX300h drivers too. Toyota sells the most hybrids around and Lexus are the largest luxury/premium hybrid manufacturer, so they must be doing something right. It's not just for the fuel economy, ya know.

Sulu

Thank goodness for the math challenged, otherwise there would be no Lexus (we would drive Toyotas instead), no Audi (we could drive VWs, or Skodas and SEATs instead), no Cadillac (Chevy), .... Or driving taxi-grade E-Class diesels.

Heck, there would be no Jeep Grand Cherokee (we could drive a Honda CR-V instead).

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

no question lexus sells a range of hybrid vehicles, and yup, there's a market for them for those that don't mind the trade-offs. all except the rx get diminished cargo room. the ct is fine for city driving if you don't need much room and don't mind taking 10 seconds to get to 60. the ls600h is an amazing technology tour-de-force but tiny trunk and REALLY porky weight make it very compromised, and the 20-30k over the ls460l doesn't seem to make any sense.

yup, and it seems like when gas was $5/gallon, they sold a lot more than they do today. i believe prius sales have been dropping. edit: i see they're down 15% this year.

no that's not my point - lexus and possibly related toyota models (like audi, vw, etc.) differ significantly. i'm saying the cost difference of a hybrid version of the same car doesn't make any economic sense unless you keep the vehicle a LONG time and at some point the batteries might need replacing which throws the economics right out the window again. plus the compromises mentioned above. but i realize people feel good driving hybrids, so that's worth something.

haha but of course, they're not close to the same vehicle. not knocking the cr-v, of course it sells like crazy. see above.

chromedome

There's a piece at hybridcars.com on which hybrids actually pencil in or have realistic payback periods compared to their conventional cousins. For me, as a new hybrid driver, it goes beyond the convenience of not having to fill up often and not worrying about rising gas prices. The hybrid experience is also about smooth electric torque, quiet cruising on city streets and having a taste of the electrified future. All that, for me, is worth the price premium I paid.

I'm a bit surprised why you're so anti-hybrid when this forum is full of hybrid models.

J.P.

That is always the classic argument when looking back after a company sets the brands focus. As with anything, just because of what they have accomplished with the hybrids was good, doesn’t mean a different focus wouldn't have been equal or greater.

If Lexus poured all their engineering and R&D resources to develop a much deeper performance line and launched a greater range of cars\suvs\cuvs with those resources, they may have been equally successful or maybe greater. Maybe less...... But the way they choose wasn’t the “only” way, it was just the path the picked.

If they went “the other way” a lot of people on CL would be unhappy, while many others would be happier with the sportier options and expanded line.

J.P.

We are also on a forum that offers the LFA, IS-F, RC-F and GS-F..............

spwolf

thats silly statement... does the V6 or V8 pay off compared to small 4cly?

It is not just lower consumption in 2 years... it is usually better, faster, smoother engine with better mpg and better residual values and better reliability (at least when Toyota's are concerned).

chromedome

And that's why choice is good I'm glad Lexus offers those performance models alongside its regular and hybrid models.

The fact remains that Lexus is alone among the luxury makes in having a wide hybrid lineup. You can get better performance cars from BMW and Mercedes; you can't get a good hybrid from any of them. Toyota saw that market opportunity years ago and jumped on it whereas the Germans are only now doing so, especially when they've seen how popular the Tesla Model S can be.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

you don't get a v6 or v8 to pay off. you get it because it drives better or can tow more or goes faster.

no way a hybrid cost premium pays for itself in 2 years, it's typicallly like 6 or more.

it might be faster, but not better or smoother. certainly the gs450h for example is smooth because it has a cvt-like transmission. obviously in the VERY LOW speed that a hybrid can run briefly without the gas engine running, the vehicle is smooth and silent, like a golf cart.

def. better mpg in city at least, and when you say better residual, you mean percentage? probably debatable, but certainly hybrid cars are reliable because the toyota ones at least have been really well engineered and the brakes are hardly used due to regeneration. also, i suspect most hybrid vehicles are driven very gently.

chromedome

There's more than subtle snarkiness in there somewhere... If you don't like hybrids, fine, just don't trash the people who do like them.

Is it a bad thing to drive slow and to like quiet driving? Should you always be driving like you're on a BTCC qualifying lap?

spwolf

- If you can pay for V6 because it is smoother and faster, then why cant you pay for hybrid becaus e it is smoother, faster plus it saves you money at the pump? For instance Camry Hybrid vs Camry 2.5l 4cly.

- Most hybrids are faster and smoother than their gasoline identicals - for instance GS450h or Camry Hybrid.

- Residual as in you pay more at start but you also get more for it used... so it is not 6 years pay off period.

Typically, it is 2-3 years to pay-off right now with all costs calculated in, plus you get faster and smoother engine - at least in good hybrids, which is what we are discussing anyway.

Sulu

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate Honda's effort here in improving hybrid vehicle fuel economy (I admit, I can be very critical of some of Honda's efforts). But as an engineer, I am always asking how and why. It seems that Honda re-thought the various hybrid driving modes (no doubt with knowledge gained from their own hybrid experience and the hybrid experiences of Toyota and Ford) and optimised each to the use of the electric motor, gasoline engine, or both.

I find it curious, though, how directly coupling the engine to the drive wheels at higher speeds, thus allowing the car to drive as a normal gasoline-engined car, can save fuel -- there is a direct mechanical connection between engine and wheels, with no CVT effect (constant engine rpm). It was my understanding that an engine turning an electric generator is very efficient, more efficient than an engine turning wheels through a mechanical gearset. Perhaps (in Toyota's hybrid system) routing engine power through a generator, through the power control unit to the electric drive motor wastes more power (and that is leaving the battery out of the picture) than the simple mechanical connection of engine to drive wheels in Honda's system.

Sulu

Ah, the self-righteous. They do claim to know best, don't they?

Ah, but they are different vehicles, driving differently, just as the Camry 2.5L 4-cyl, Camry Hybrid the Camry 3.5L V6 all drive differently. The 4-cyl is for the masses, the V6 is for those who want a smooth sleeper car and the Hybrid is for those who want to leave a smaller footprint on the environment.

Compared to the base 4-cyl Camry, each of the other 2 drivetrains has its advantages and compromises: The V6 drinks more fuel and is noticeably heavier in the nose, affecting handling, but it is quick and smooth; and the Hybrid has a smaller trunk but it is smooth, well-balanced (the battery over the rear axle balances the weight of the engine), clean-burning and very fuel efficient.

Just as there are people who are willing to pay extra for the V6 (I don't see a need for it), there are others who are willing to pay extra for the Hybrid. We never talk about the payoff period for the V6 (able to tow those adult toys, less tiring drives, shorter drives if you can drive faster) so why should we talk about the payoff period for the Hybrid?

I bought a hybrid for the better fuel economy and the smaller footprint I leave on the environment. Having relatives with respiratory issues, I appreciate that a hybrid is so much cleaner than a normal gasoline or diesel vehicle, especially when I am crawling along on the highway in EV mode, and the trucks and most of the cars I am sharing the road with continue to spew emissions that hurt our lungs.

Fixed it for you!