vlad_a

I can't attest to GS350, but IS350 is OK. Would I pick an IS350 over Germans if it wasn't reliable? Probably not. Audi S4 is substantially quicker and BMW 335i is more nimble.
Then there the HUMP in AWD IS350. I have watched people at the auto show get into the IS350 just to get out of it puzzled. WTF is this thing on the floor? With AWD being the most popular configuration nowadays, they sure lost a lot of customers because of it.

I own 3RX because Lexus made the 1IS. Sales figures for 1IS may paint it to be a failure, however, one has to look beyond that. Many former IS300 owners have stayed with the brand and bought other, more "bland" models for their other needs. This was the point-of-entry vehicle. BMW had one all along and got the customers early on with their lower 3-series. It takes decades to build a customer base. However, one begs to question whether enthusiasts are indeed a part of that base for Lexus? Are we the "F"-crowd or is Lexus enthusiast an oxymoron?

My DD needs are different from others. I don't consider automatics to be fun sport cars (other than a Ferrari). That criterion alone throws away any and all Lexuses in the current lineup for me. Hence why I am now down to 1 Lexus in the garage. Indeed, it is the "farm girl", or there'd be a German model in her place. Because needy models don't make good babysitters.

I decided to stay away from Germans this time around and got a wild animal in the form of the 2015 Subaru WRX STi. It is raw and needs to be tamed. Entertaining, never the less. If Lexus would have made a car fitting my requirements (300HP+, Stick-Shift, AWD with Rear bias), I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Alas, it doesn't.

There used to be a time when Supra was Toyota's halo car (it still is). Now, that was the real deal. If they still made '99 Supra with 6-speed Getrag and 2JZ-GTE, I would likely buy one.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

if you think as a company it's so obvious and easy for them to just snap no a supercharge or turbocharger and call it a day on a mass production vehicle which toyota/lexus want to stick their precious badge on, you are clearly simplifying things big time

i don't think anyone has doubt that toyota can do it, and there is zero confusion that they have already done the LS with turbo v8. but i think you should also know that able to make something is only the beginning part of a long production cycle to make sure the setup is reliable in every single way under any circumstances over long period of time. we are talking about thousands and thousands of hours of testing.

we all know the lfa v10 engine is capable of doing far higher redline rpm and more power, are we going to start questioning why they are not doing it so the lfa is more powerful but at the same time visiting dealerships for engine rebuild just as often as the next ferrari?

if what you see is so obvious to you, i personally think it's also very obvious to me that toyota is behind in the whole FI game in current models and they are getting there (200t is a start).

and bringing an existing argument to the table. if lexus fans are saying that they just want to do a balanced fun car without just pushing on hp, then my question is, if it's so widespread that the gs chassis is so far superior than the 5 series chassis (which i agree btw), then it only makes sense that the gs can handle more power than the current spec on gsf and make it an even better fun car.

I8ABMR

DING DING DING !!!! Well said .

My ISF is in the shop for new tires and new exhaust and I have a GS350 F Sport loaner. Its a great luxury car . As a sports sedan its kind of weak. The suspension is too soft, the car has no *****, and the steering in Sport + is SO over boosted that the suspension can not keep up with the steering inputs without wallowing. I know Im used to an ISF but the F sport cars are a joke. All show and no go !!!! The exhaust/engine note was great but every time I found myself looking down at the speedo I was very disappointed. I can not believe they put F Sport on the car and it rocks a V6 in this huge heavy car. The same engine in the tiny IS. There is nothing sporty about it other than its intentions. Why dont they just drop the LS460 V8 in it and call it F sport and then the GSF the fire breathing 463 HP unit ( that will be destroyed by zee Germans........total blood bath. The idea of seeing the comparisons makes me sad). Now you immediately have the intermediate engine output and you can satisfy true enthusiasts and justify the badge . Reliability will only take you so far in creating appeal. The lexus consumers of the older style vehicles are literally dying off. They need to gets this new spin right and they need to FOCUS and get serious. Dont get me started on the marketing problems they have when the people buying the cars literally have no idea the difference between the F Sport and the real F cars. I talked to a SA today at the dealer who didnt even know a GSF was coming. smh

If we are true enthusiasts lets stop blowing smoke. Its ok to expect more. Like I have said many times. Lexus is heading in the right direction but just slowly and sometimes its just frustrating to watch them make these stupid mistakes when trying to develop a reputation for true sports cars. Pretty sure Mercedes and BMW are not obsessed with sales volume on their black series and M cars. These cars are created for the purists and for the world to see that these people know how to build hardcore sports cars and sports sedans. We need more extreme models and we need them fast and they need to carry with them the same level of passion and even development as cars like the LFA ( maybe not 10 years lol ). You dont go from the LFA as performance flagship to the porky RCF. The RCF needed to be as light as the M4 and with more power to really step up ,the LFA replacement should have been done or in the works by now , and the ISF should have been produced with the release of the 3IS ( but the idiotic notion that we dont need to create another ISF to give birth to a GSF that will be slaughtered. ) As well as other massive mistakes like making the "new" LS460 look just like my 07 LS460 with a refresh.

TF109B

Everyone has opinions. None or right or wrong. The buyers decide whether the cars fail or succeed. So far, they have success. The F cars are just starting. They dont need to be anything but a hit with buyers and there will be more of them.

mmarshall

Did you mean 1998? There was no 1999 Supra in the U.S. It was withdrawn after 1998 due to cost, insurance, emissions, ow sales, and other factors.

situman

Whether or not my pov is correct or not, the fact that they still parade the LFA around tells me that it's still relevant in their eyes and minds. Just in the last two weeks, the main page has a few articles about the LFA. I think even Lexus understands what a halo car is and know how not to eclipse it in any way shape or form. There's absolutely no way that they didn't know the RC will not be competitive in handling and power with all the accomplished test drivers in the company.

Sure its easy to say well it was designed for anybody to drive on the road regardless of skill level...but realistically it will be cross shopped and compared to its competitors. When an M4 with less hp pulls away from your shiny new car, I don't think the owner will be very happy getting laughed at by some douchebag BMW driver. Believe me, more often than not, people that can afford these kinds of cars, will require bragging rights.

maxnix

Not a Chris Harris fan, but his points are petty much spot on.

Lexus is a very good luxury car, but a too heavy and under powered performance car.

Compared to BMW, the Bimmers are 10% lighter and 10% more powerful. Lexus is at best only marginally competitive on price.

Compared to MB, the Lexus come somewhat close in luxury but get blasted by the MB top models performance wise. Lexus is more competitive on price, but at the top levels, few care about that.

Toyota and Lexus are moving more towards performance with help from BMW, so let's see what happens.

maxnix

Yeah, and some of them laud the ATS chassis over the F8x 3/4 series. But the Germans still stomp Lexus in sales because each makes a more complete package than Lexus.

vlad_a

You are correct. Has it been that long?
I came across this entertaining article about halo cars:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...yway-12206624/

rominl

iTrader: (4)

huh? which model are you talking about? rcf?

not all lexus are heavy though

DFGeneer

Sure. But to me the fact that Toyota are "behind" in the FI game simply confirms that they do not care all that much about horsepower.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i don't agree. the idea of FI plays two roles here. sure, it's one of the easiest way to gain power, but more importantly it's to satisfy the harsher regulations on emissions over the years (and in the coming years). toyota engines have always been more efficient and cleaner than others, even at this point. that's why toyota had the luxury to stay with NA and not deal with the added reliability concerns with a more complicated FI design.

and we see they are coming out with 200t and also clear indications of more turbo engines to come. these show that toyota is now also at the point where they have no choice but to use FI to achieve the required performance while meeting emission requirements. so yes, they are behind in FI development in today's mass production vehicles.

i don't see how that can derive the idea that they don't care for more power. i mean, how do you know yaguchi-san doesn't actually want more power in the gsf but truth is he has no other choices? we have to keep in mind, these high power cars are a very tiny percentage of their sales. with toyota's culture, it's hard for them to have some dedicated setup for these cars. outside of the lfa v10, even the isf or rcf v8 are derivative of the 5l v8 originated from the ls600hl. this is very different from the bmw v8 / v10 or the amg 6.2l.

if today toyota has a reliable (qualified for mass production) higher power engine setup but they chose not to use it for rcf / gsf, then yes, you have a point.

gengar

This couldn't be further from the truth - especially with some of the departures with corporate shuffling around, the reality is that few people if anyone at Lexus cares much about the LFA anymore; it's long in the past. Keep in mind also that you're talking about a car company that has never felt the need to differentiate model lineups by power for marketing reasons, often using the same exact engine with the same exact tune in vehicles of vastly different design and cost.


You were the one accusing them of hypocrisy for having differing opinions, not me. Besides, you're wrong on this - a number of Jalopnik writers have expressed positivity about Lexus models, especially older models (but a few positive articles, such as about the GS450h and the 3IS 350 F-Sport, are on newer models). A number of them are participating in Matt Farah's 1 million mile LS400 project, and it's funny reading some of them gush about a 20-year-old vanilla Japanese car.


How was the article not constructive? He laid out exactly where Lexus has gone wrong, namely that Lexus has not taken the opportunity to introduce mainstream performance models that have a similar engineering and design approach to what the LFA had - not least of which is simply to offer something different than what the Germans/Europeans in general do.

The reality is that Chris Harris is one of us. That's why I find the criticism of his article so surprising. Just watch his RC-F video review on youtube - it's obvious he's cheerleading for Lexus! He wants Lexus to succeed with its F cars because he doesn't want the Germans to be the only ones making performance luxury cars. His review comes out negatively because of his disappointment that the RC-F isn't as competitive as he wants it to be.

TF109B

One of us? Or one of the priviledged few? Thats what Chris Harris is. His opinions are just that. They arent constructive criticisms. How is the RC F not different from the Germans? Its not some stripped-out wanna be race car. Its not turbo charged. Its not 4wd. Its nothing like the M4, the C63 or RS5. And thats the only "F" car there is right now. So thats what we have to go on. Him criticising "F" and "F-sport" is fine, but its not like the Germans do it so differently that their way is right and Lexus is wrong. Thats being biased. If Lexus did it how the Germans do, itd be labelled as copying. They do it another way and its not good enough because theyre not emulating the Germans. Same old, same old.

doge

It's not as good, plain and simple.