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For all intensive purposes why do we have to focus on characteristics we can neither confirm or deny? Maybe it will be terrible lag, maybe it will not. Twin scrolls are the end game for anti lag, while some say 2 stepped turbos are the end game, or even turbo supercharged setup. Too many variables to even consider.
I`d rather just dream of the new LS being a trend setter in powertrain, and give them the trophy, and let Lexus engineers decided whether they live up to the fame or drop the ball
For all intensive purposes why do we have to focus on characteristics we can neither confirm or deny? Maybe it will be terrible lag, maybe it will not. Twin scrolls are the end game for anti lag, while some say 2 stepped turbos are the end game, or even turbo supercharged setup. Too many variables to even consider.
I`d rather just dream of the new LS being a trend setter in powertrain, and give them the trophy, and let Lexus engineers decided whether they live up to the fame or drop the ball
Totally agree.
Lexus is going with a TT V6. Its the right choice.
I`d rather just dream of the new LS being a trend setter in powertrain, and give them the trophy, and let Lexus engineers decided whether they live up to the fame or drop the ball
Before we knew anything factual about the 5LS, there were rumors that Lexus would forego the traditional luxury sedan (S-Class, 7-Series, A8) for something more along the lines of the XJ and Panamera. The result is a mix. I think the Lexus LS matches well against the 2nd generation Panamera which starts at $85K and has a base engine 2.9L TTV6 albeit less power (330hp). There's also a Panamera E-Hybrid, and of course the Panamera Turbo. The LS will likely have an 'h' version from the LC500h, and the few pictures I've seen of the LS500 engine bay space indicate a V8 model in the future (as was the case with the 2013 GS ---> hello 2016 GS F). I'd wager mid cycle update you'll have an F variant (not gaudy, think presence of Panamera Turbo) with a 600+ hp TTV8.
In my experience, modern day turbos have little lag.
It is more the "flatness" of the torque curve, especially at smaller throttle openings.
Notice how the torque curves are so much more differently shaped at smaller throttle openings.
The 535i turbo and E400 turbos that I have test driven so far have all had "peaky" shaped torque curves; none of them have flattish torque curves like the GS450h gasoline-electric hybrid.
And always remember that neither Formula 1 cars, nor Mercedes has gone to all the trouble of making electric turbos for no reason at all.
If the conventional turbo was great, there would be no reason to develop electric turbos.
The rationale for developing the electric turbo is to address the weaknesses of the conventional turbo.
In my experience, modern day turbos have little lag.
It is more the "flatness" of the torque curve, especially at smaller throttle openings.
Notice how the torque curves are so much more differently shaped at smaller throttle openings.
The 535i turbo and E400 turbos that I have test driven so far have all had "peaky" shaped torque curves; none of them have flattish torque curves like the GS450h gasoline-electric hybrid.
And always remember that neither Formula 1 cars, nor Mercedes has gone to all the trouble of making electric turbos for no reason at all.
If the conventional turbo was great, there would be no reason to develop electric turbos.
The rationale for developing the electric turbo is to address the weaknesses of the conventional turbo.
Have you seen the torque curve on some of these modern turbocharged engines? Some are as flat as a table, peaking incredibly early (~2000 rpm) and staying at that peak to high in range (~5000+ rpm). It depends on how the turbocharger is tuned. That is one great benefit of forced-induction -- it allows the engine to be fed the exact amount of air necessary to produce the torque (and power) curves that the powertrain engineer wants.
One benefit of being late to the game is that the player can learn from everyone else who has gone before. Lexus may be late to the game but I have no doubt that they spent that time well, by learning from the ones who were earlier. I have no doubt that their twin-turbo V6 will be a well-designed engine.
Have you seen the torque curve on some of these modern turbocharged engines? Some are as flat as a table, peaking incredibly early (~2000 rpm) and staying at that peak to high in range (~5000+ rpm). It depends on how the turbocharger is tuned. That is one great benefit of forced-induction -- it allows the engine to be fed the exact amount of air necessary to produce the torque (and power) curves that the powertrain engineer wants.
One benefit of being late to the game is that the player can learn from everyone else who has gone before. Lexus may be late to the game but I have no doubt that they spent that time well, by learning from the ones who were earlier. I have no doubt that their twin-turbo V6 will be a well-designed engine.
Yes, they can be flat, but that's at "full" throttle.
At part throttle, they are very lethargic down low - hence the electric turbo in F1 racing cars, and Mercedes' forthcoming in-line six.
You're right, I am sure the 3.5 TT will be a decent engine too.
It will be interesting to see how Lexus' forthcoming V6 TT compares to the forthcoming generation of Benz in-line six electric turbos.
Benz' electric turbo will accelerate to 70,000 rpm in just 0.3 seconds.
Reading the stats on that new MB engine with the electric compressor (it's not a turbo) makes me cringe. My god, that's the most complicated thing I've ever read to be put into one vehicle.
So to recap: this 3.0-liter turbocharged inline-six, with its electric motor/generator, electric turbocharger, (regular turbocharger) electric water pump and electric AC compressor, is a thoroughly advanced contraption that promises more than408 horsepower and370 lb-ft of torque.
Sooo... It's a hybrid, turbocharged, AND electrically supercharged inline 6.
Wow. They can't even get an NA engine to make it to 100k miles without costing a fortune. Imagine the cost of replacing an electric motor/generator, or a turbo, or an electric "turbo" compressor, etc, etc... A ten foot pole isn't nearly long enough for this car.
It's amazing when a company cares NOTHING for longevity. It's all about the pimp factor and white paper races.
BTW, the LS TTV6 has better hp and torques than this MB rat's nest. So why the complication? The insanity continues. Just keep cramming more crap in there.
As an aside, the lethargy down low in turbo engines you complain about is by design. You don't want turbo boost at low throttle. If you had that, any MPG gains provided by the turbocharger would be lost because you're boosting out of parking spaces. There's no need for that.
If you want more power, you press your foot down another quarter inch and get it.
The turbo I owned not only had low RPM lag, obviously, but had the "coast" lag.
It's those situations where you throttle off and coast then re-engage the throttle. There's a delay. It happens on the freeway and slow-speed turns and it's annoying as heck. No matter how small the turbos, there's the laws of inertia that have to be overcome. This is a real-world driving situation that usually isn't put on paper but is a slave to the laws of physics nonetheless.
Some people might not even notice these things and of course this perception is entirely subjective, but it's there. After a while you get used to it and compensate throttle and RPMs and do so almost subconsciously after a while. But that delay becomes noticeable again when you drive a equally powerful engine without turbos.
Agreed. At the end of the day, they are two different engines doing things two different ways.
But as you said, you get accustomed, and soon you can't tell anymore. You do however get to enjoy the extra power and theoretical increase in MPG. Funny that, turbos can increase mpg but seldom do as boost can be addictive and you're always in it.
The turbo I owned not only had low RPM lag, obviously, but had the "coast" lag.
It's those situations where you throttle off and coast then re-engage the throttle. There's a delay. It happens on the freeway and slow-speed turns and it's annoying as heck. No matter how small the turbos, there's the laws of inertia that have to be overcome. This is a real-world driving situation that usually isn't put on paper but is a slave to the laws of physics nonetheless.
Some people might not even notice these things and of course this perception is entirely subjective, but it's there. After a while you get used to it and compensate throttle and RPMs and do so almost subconsciously after a while. But that delay becomes noticeable again when you drive a equally powerful engine without turbos.
Which turbo car did you own if I may ask. I wish you could test drive a modern TT car like a GTR or even a G80 to compare to your 4.6 V8 LS, I think you will be surprised. Try from low speed or highway speed.
Which turbo car did you own if I may ask. I wish you could test drive a modern TT car like a GTR or even a G80 to compare to your 4.6 V8 LS, I think you will be surprised. Try from low speed or highway speed.
A good point is brought up here. What's your benchmark? As stated pages back, modern, well done turbos are imperceptible.
I've owned a 1991 MR2 Turbo and driven, extensively, an N54 BMW 335.
I've felt lag in both. Granted I owned the MR2 for years and got use to it and if you would have asked me during ownership, especially during the latter stages, I would have shrugged my shoulders and said lag isn't a big deal because I was use to it just as you probably are, but my next car reminded me about it.
The BMW coast lag was really perceptible to me versus dead-stop throttle. Drive the car on freeway, throttle off for more than a second then throtttle and see for yourself.
I've owned a 1991 MR2 Turbo and driven, extensively, an N54 BMW 335.
I've felt lag in both. Granted I owned the MR2 for years and got use to it and if you would have asked me during ownership, especially during the latter stages, I would have shrugged my shoulders and said lag isn't a big deal because I was use to it just as you probably are, but my next car reminded me about it.
The BMW coast lag was really perceptible to me versus dead-stop throttle. Drive the car on freeway, throttle off for more than a second then throtttle and see for yourself.
Aren't these both old cars and single turbo? Also, I don't think the G80 has the turbo engine yet, the G90 does.
02-09-17, 01:33 PM
