vlad_a

I just got this e-mail update:
So, FYI, if you are paying for SOS service, Lexus is collecting your usage stats by default.
Although, I do not subscribe to any paid Lexus services, I still got this e-mail.

mshumack

I'm okay with it. There is nothing "personal or private" in this application.
What I don't like is the NSA recording my pribvate phone calls - but how I use the Nav system and what features I use most often, are okay to collect. Maybe it will improve the product.
Too bad there is not a button I can touch when I'm disappointed with something (like the lack of grid-lines on the backup camera screen).

MacCat

While I believe that the Lexus Nav system is one of the best I have used, so far, it's still primitive and sluggish. But, it's moving in the right direction - basically, allowing a cell phone to slave the car system, not the other way around. Why reinvent the wheel when cell phone technology is years ahead of car nave technology, which almost never benefits from upgrades or improvements (just the occasional bug fixes). Car computer have enough to do, let my cell phone handle the navigation, weather, email, and alerts. All I really want is a nice, reliable, BIG display screen. And, what's wrong with installing a 3D backup camera, Lexus ? People need more of a reference than maker lines, but that's a good start. 3D would be better and adjustable sensitivity should be easier to use while actually backing up and pulling in (ie FRONT and BACK cameras).

And, as for feedback, Lexus is almost as opaque as Apple with regard to soliciting feedback, once you have left the dealership. The web site needs a FEEDBACK link on every web page, but good luck getting any Sales People or Marketing people to reply. They are miopics who live in ivory towers with not view of the ground . . . .

But, getting back to your point about SOS and Big Brother - you allowed them in when you bought the thing, with or without disclaimers. The Lexus Marketing machine demands all the contact information they can get from you, so be prepared. Create a dummy account and even phone number for all their record keeping.

The ONLY useful purpose of the Enform (SOS) system, in my case, is to retrieve a stolen car, quickly, before it gets striped down and parted. I prefer Lojack, which I have on my other car, but I'm annoyed that one has to pay for the Enform services, just to enable the GPS tracking for security purposes.

ggebhardt

I suspect that the enform system could be used to "watch" someone no matter if it was active or not. Few real secrets anymore.

vlad_a

I suspect as well. All it takes is a quick reactivation and deactivation of the account.

DunWkg

I just hope they aren't listening when I'm swearing at voice control. No, wait, I do wish they could hear me.

vlad_a

I wonder if they recognize a fist hitting the screen. Oh, wait, that's why we don't have a touchscreen anymore.

I've been thinking about drawing them a picture since they are capturing coordinates of usage. But I have no subscribed services.

todor

As a software developer, I can say that statistics such as the ones they seem to be collecting are hugely important to improving a product. You can learn all sorts of things about user behavior, tune the hardware for specific use cases, and over all improve the product to match what the users want or expect, even if they're not verbalizing it. In fact, usage statistics are often more useful than personal comments. So while it's kind of annoying that our data is being collected, I definitely see how it can be useful. As long as we trust them not to abuse it, of course... and also to protect it from hackers.

ggebhardt

Trust IS the problem. Companies like Google and even our government have abused this trust. All we ask is the ability to opt out of these data collection services. It might be OK by you, but others may not like it and should have a choice.

todor

Yes, I agree. And it sounds like Lexus is offering the option to opt out (albeit not very easily - you have to call customer service, etc.).

Sevn86

A little random but have any of yall noticed the lights near the SOS button go from green to red and then like 30 - 45 seconds later it does that again and it just keeps doing it? My RX has recently been doing this. It does it when the car is on and your driving it. I know when you turn the car on it does it but thats cuz its starting up, but mine just keeps doing it. Any thoughts?

No thread jack intended OP

hziemba

First, IIRC, the system has its own CDMA phone (think Verizon), so it doesn't need your personal cellphone to communicate. That's a good thing for those of us using AT&T, because the area you're in may have CDMA service, where it has no TDMA, or vice versa - more likely to have a connection to get help.

Second, Lexus requires a trip to a dealer to enable the Enform (at least the safety connect). That --suggests-- the system is designed to prevent activation of the vehicle tracking without the driver's knowledge, but does NOT say that it --does---.

Lexus privacy (like OnStar) is a joke; if you read the rather lengthy document, you'll see that it has loopholes big enough to drive a truck through!! Their idea of anonymous is common in the industry, but wouldn't pass the "smile" test of any knowledgeable security analyst - ex. the IP address ties your device to any data exchange. ANY ISP can determine who the IP address is registered to; they may not know that it came from you personally, but they surely can tie it to your account. And remember that any data they pull from your car goes through the built-in cellular unit, which has its own unique identifier, which is easily tied to a specific VIN, and Lexus certainly knows the current owner of that vehicle. Also, since the phone built into the car uses the cellular system, the carrier has a pretty good record of where you've been, and when - this is a part of the metadata you hear so much about in the news today, and which has ZERO legal protection.

Further, these documents have phrases like "including, but not limited to..." , where they reserve the right to collect anything else they want, in the future, without even giving you notice. Will they do it? You don't know...and that is a problem.

Finally, and most importantly, none of these systems I've seen have ANY certification from a competent, independent authority. That speaks volumes about how seriously they take security - NOT!!

Given these facts, you have to assume that any data the car collects, including location, speed, and time tags are tied to you as a specific person, regardless of how they advertise the services. Are these services helpful? Absolutely, but there are risks in increasing your electronic footprint. In the security world, everything is suspect until proven safe; there are a lot of legitimate risks here and security has not been proven. Privacy protections are limited, at best.

Oh yeah, remember these services let you talk to an operator (let's the operator hear you). There's a microphone in the car that can clearly be remotely activated - by design. Their privacy document seems to assure you that they will not use if for anything beyond the advertised purpose. Unfortunately, they just expect you to take their word for it. This kind of spying would clearly violate a lot of laws...then again, laws may be changed, or violated even by those sworn to protect them.

hziemba

Companies like Google are in business to make money, so I'm not surprised that they will do anything to collect data about you, unless there are specific laws to prohibit it - notice I didn't say prevent it. One would expect government to protect people, and pass laws that constrain such activity, provide legal protections for your data, and provide you with a meaningful recourse with teeth, when the law is violated..

Unfortunately, we don't have such laws, because politicians and bureaucrats who want to "know all" and "control all", WANT the companies to collect as much data as they want. The legal system they've set up decides that these data (with relatively few exceptions) are "business records", and that you have no expectation of privacy. Now, I've never agreed to this interpretation, nor do I know anyone else who has.

So what we have is a system with mostly "free for all" collection, by businesses. If the government ever wants to get that data, they just go to the company and demand access to the "business records" ...or they just covertly collect it on their own, and most people are never the wiser. And they can do all of this without any search warrant, based on a showing of probable cause (not possible cause), as the Constitution clearly requires...but that's another story.

Hoovey689

iTrader: (16)

This is nothing new. If you read the description of Safety Connect, it clearly states GPS tracking abilities:

http://www.lexus.com/enform/