Thank gosh its a bimmer motor, which I asssume is one of the first things that probs was either my way or high way when engineers from Munich met. The aftermarket support as noted is soo much better no 2j but more then anything than anything Lexus would offer with their locked down ecus philosophy. Knowing Bimmer, they`re probs gonna underrate it from the factory to make sure when you feel it for the first time you`ll be suprised as to only this many ponies?

Its coming together, heck the inspiration in those headlamp assemblies are sweet.

 

Too bad it will look nothing like that. It will end up looking like more like teeny bopper than a grown *** man car,

 

I got very excited when I saw this racing concept version today. Personally I like the looks.

Then I read this and my interest in the car deflated a lot:

https://jalopnik.com/the-new-toyota-...ual-1823557329

I have to agree with incredulity the article authors when they react to Tetsuya Tada claiming that most people interested in the Supra (old or new) do not like to row their own gears. That's completely off-base.

Weirdly if you see the treasure trove of pictures of this concept on LeftLaneNews you will find a couple showing the pedals in the footwell: there are three of them, yet the steering wheel has paddle shifters.

Still, if those are real quotes from Tetsuya Tada I'm more than a little annoyed.

Edit: there is also this article quote from the SupraForums thread on this topic:

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...1#post13736441

Posted to SF and taken from: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...re-s-hope.html

 

Here's AutoGuide's video from Geneva:

 

The racing version certainly looks like it's ready for business but of course the street version has to be tamed down. Surprising to see so much panic among Supra fans because essentially the street version has not been seen in its full undisguised body yet.

The problem comes right back to who you cater to. Should Toyota spend all this money to cater to people who are nostalgically remembering the MKIV? And a manual transmission? Really, how much of a market is there for that? I'm pretty sure TMC does not look at market demand from internet forums, that's for sure.

It's very well known that performance cars with sporty attributes which please a tiny sliver of the market and auto reviewers do not necessarily sell in large numbers. You cannot cater to a few enthusiasts on the internet with this type of car. How many drivers, even car fans even know how to drive a manual? You have to try and get as many buyers within the segment as you can.

It's understandable that there are other manufacturers who do offer manuals and Hi-Po engines, like the domestic retro-muscle car segment and a few others. But those cars have a long history and they often use shared components to offset the costs. This is an attempt to revive a long dead nameplate and the problem is that Toyota became a commuter car and CUV company in between the last Supra and this one.

 

You do realize that the hype that has surrounded the 1993-2002 MKIV Supra, strength of the 2JZ-GTE turbo engine and near indestructible 6-speed manual transmission are the very reasons that a fifth generation even got greenlit for development and production, right? Yes, they have spent all this money to cater to the most iconic sportscar they ever created which well overshadows their famous 60's 2000GT. Akio Toyoda loves the MKIV Supra and so does the chief designer Tetsuya Tada. Both of them pushed for a true successor to the MKIV Supra.

And how much of a market is there for a manual transmission in a *Supra*? Not just some new Lexus sportscar but a a car badged "Supra"? I'd say the demand is actually pretty strong given that how much people associate this particular car with the Getrag manual. Plenty of people who can afford this car will be cross-shopping it against the competitor sportscars that DO offer manuals.

They aren't building it to cater to just a few fans on the internet. The MKIV lineage is a very popular and famous both online and offline.

Actually a lot of car fans know how to drive a manual and look for manual cars. The trouble is that increasingly it is getting harder to find new cars they want to buy WITH a manual transmission. Some acquiesce and accept an automatic while others... just find another new (or slightly older) car that comes with a manual.

Toyota was always going to offer one of their lockup torque convertor automatics or a DCT in the new Supra so there was never going to be an issue with cutting out a significant number of buyers in the same way the Subaru WRX STI, Ford Focus RS, Shelby Mustang GT350 or Honda Civic Type R do (all of those come manual-only). Further, all of those are low volume specialty models like the Supra and they seem to be doing fine. The Supra only shares its platform and R&D cost with one other model (the BMW Z4) but this doesn't seem to have stopped Akio Toyoda from pushing his board to make an MKIV successor a reality.

The Supra and its 1JZ/2JZ + manual lineage has a long enough history and continued popularity to have justified that this car be built. Interestingly from the onset the design goal was to get back to what made the MKIV so compelling, fun and popular in the first place rather than go the route Nissan did with the R35 GTR and build a pure track/lap machine. The MKV, while it should be fast, isn't intended to be the fastest sportscar on the block. It's intended by Tetsuya Tada and the Gazoo Racing folks to be fun and engaging to drive. Hence why it makes even more sense that it should be given a manual transmission option.

Porsche recently went through this with its customer and fan base over the initial exclusion of a manual transmission from the GT3. They backtracked and offered one after many customer complaints.

Hyundai recently released the Veloster N with a 275hp turbo engine, mechanical limited slip differential and a 6-speed manual transmission. Their stated goal with the car? Not lap times but engaging fun for people who like to drive.

It may be subtle and still at the mercy of market forces on a case by case basis but there is a trend going on here that divides the performance car enthusiast world: there are many people who prefer a manual because they find it more fun and engaging than being the fastest. People like this don't care so much about how fast an auto/DCT transmission shifts but rather that it doesn't try to outthink them, shift impredictably/slowly or tell them when they *can't* shift. These aren't issues with traditional manual gearboxes which also happen to be a lot of fun to use.

Modern racecars and race-intended cars don't use them any longer because they go against the intended purposes of those cars: the fastest lap times possible.

There will always be people who are interested in manual transmissions (even if they are bolted electric motors to the chagrin of efficiency freaks everywhere) and there will always be plenty of people who don't care for manuals. When a specific model of vehicle warrants a manual transmission option for one reason or another it's actually very relevant... and perhaps not the car so equipped for everyone.

The fact that in some cases we have these options available to us as car enthusiasts is fantastic

 

Veloster... really? Well, I guess there is always that.

 

Unless a Focus RS or STI or Civic Type R are on the menu it's an impressive step up for Hyundai in the compact FWD segment. They also ditched the old torsion beam rear suspension and went to full independent rear.

Not to stray off topic here but their goal philosophy (ie: emphasis on driver engagement and fun) in building that car is not unlike where Toyota came from in designing the MKV Supra. Totally different cars but still.

 

 

Yes, you are correct that there is the aura of the MKIV and its aftermarket tuning image. Now if that was such a strong market, then why did TMC go straight to BMW and its DCT for the heart and soul of this car? Is it a BMW CLAR platform and suspension? Why is that? Is it BMW interior pieces including possibly a Bimmer steering wheel and shifter? They obviously saw something that was not economically feasible to do, ie. do a modern re-invention of the 2JZ-GTE/Getrag. So they've invoked the Supra name to rebrand their image while reducing costs big time. The company's bean counters/product planners ran the numbers and they know something you and I can't know.

As the driver of a 7th gen Accord coupe, six speed vtec V6, I hear you but by no means is that the mainstream of the market back then or today. Here Toyota simply chose a product plan and figured out that offering any kind of manual in a revived nameplate was not worth the hassle. If these executives you cite were all on board and jumping up and down about it, it would have happened. If Supra fans want a manual transmission car bad enough, they can head over to the incoming Z4. That was likely an agreement between BMW and Toyota to make the numbers work.

All cars which share platform and engineering with a huugge bigley number of regular ole commuter scooters to ofset their development expense. Subaru's WRX etc are AWD rally platforms and they sell a ridiculous amount of other plain old Subies that aren't a WRX etc.

Focus is a fwd platform engineered with AWD platform and they sell tons, and tons of regular garden variety Focus'. Shelby is a dedicated muscle car platform that has been out as a brand name since 2005 and well beyond that with manuals since time immemorial, not to mention how many Mustangs are sold with just a base motor and automatic.

Civic type R same thing fwd platform because they sell a gazillion other Civics to subsidize it. Supra is a dedicated RWD platform shared with BMW. No other Toyota products sharing this new platform to subsidize it.

Then Toyota can create a retro resto-mod shop to appeal to those fans and that market just like other manufacturers have done. Why not?

Porsche is a bespoke dedicated sports car manufacturer. If you want to pay $100,000 for a Supra, certainly suggest it to Akio and his product planners

A fwd niche car that does not sell in large numbers, seems to get back to my original point. They had to do something because their numbers dropped to less than half last year for sales.

Absolutely, there are always options so all is not lost. But I think the hyperbole and panic among "orthodox" Supra-istas is misplaced when there is no road test of this car as of yet. Short memories because the MKIV priced itself out of the market and did not sell in big enough numbers for Toyota to keep evolving and making it. Otherwise we would now be on MKVII by now.

There are plenty of used Supras to buy on the market to satisfy such needs.

 

Well, partly because Japanese automakers built the MKIV Supra and many other famous, quirky and technology-laden sporty cars in the "Bubble" economy of the late 1980's and early 1990's when they could do such things financially on their own. Among other decisions Nissan famously built several vehicles that didn't platform share within their own ecosystem and it bankrupted them before Renault took them over. Mitsubishi had all-wheel-drive and turbocharged vehicles in seemingly every segment. So did Subaru, who managed to more or less keep that niche as nearly their entire brand identity. Honda was making statements of their own with the Civic and Integra Type R, NSX and near the end of it with the S2000. Mazda released their most famous RX-7 and nearly launched a luxury sub-brand as a competitor with Lexus and Inifiniti with a three-rotor twin turbo Cosmo coupe at the top of their lineup. And that's only in the world of 90's Japanese automobiles. None of this lasted when the financial bubble burst and there wasn't as much disposable income going around to afford these things. Also, emissions regulations tightened right around 2002 and that is what finally made many of Japan's 90's high performance muscle-sportscars die off.

Toyota could do an (almost) single use platform for the LC500 at $100k+ MSRP but for most other manufacturers other than the most prestigious luxury brands or a brand creating a six figure halo car in low numbers this is no longer possible. Porsche isn't even able to have a bespoke chassis for the 911 after the new 992 generation eventually ends some years from now.

The Supra and Z4 interior pieces may be shared to some extent with BMW but that is unknowable based on the concept car revealed today. I would imagine there is some more room to make things unique when they aren't chasing a $25k MSRP as with the FR-S/86/BRZ. A steering wheel should be easy enough to make one of Toyota's own but again... currently unknowable. The BMW automatic shifter we have seen in the spy shots of test mules for the last couple of years are probably not going to be identical to the Toyota production version.

What I do know is that for the price point this car needs to sell at with the safety, emission and other expensive regulations cars of today are expected to conform to I can understand why Toyota went to BMW to partner to attempt to split costs to co-develop and sell their new Supra. Toyota wanted an inline-six engine for the Supra and they don't have any other use for one in their product lines any longer. They used to and I wish they still did but their choices of products don't leave any room for one. BMW and Mercedes are the only two logical manufacturers to come to in order to share such an engine for their sportscar. Of those two, only BMW offers suitably high performance driver-focused inline-six twin turbo engines. With automatics and manuals.

The closest Toyota has to a 2JZ-GTE today is their new 3.5L V6 twin turbo found in the LS500. Or whatever the rumored "943F" V6TT engine is. Why they didn't use that is as good your guess as it is mine other than that they doggedly wanted an inline-six twin turbo instead of a V6.

Toyota burned their relationship with Getrag many years ago. Even though Getrag has a new owner today it's unknown if the bad blood still exists between the two companies. That's one roadblock to recreating a successor to the V160 6-speed. That's not enough to stop them from getting some manual in there if they wanted it.

The overall point is that today's economy and today's automobile regulations are not the same as they were in the 1990's. I was only a little surprised when I learned that Toyota went to BMW to partner on development and cost sharing for this car, its engine and transmissions.



True but this is not a normal product or a normal product plan. It is extremely unique in Toyota's and Lexus' product lineup. This is an exceptional case where it absolutely does make sense to offer a manual transmission. It is an irrational thing to want but then again so is the desire to make another Toyota Supra in the first place. Under management that predated Akio Toyoda it was occasionally talked about but never seriously considered. The FR-S/GT86 was also an irrational car for Toyota to make and it was fought for with the modest specs it came with not only to keep the price point down but to stay true to a certain formula that not everyone understands or values.

I will agree that if there is no manual offered in the Supra one can always go to BMW and look at the Z4... except that there will be no M version offered that would compete with the top-spec Supra GRMN and the Z4 is a two-seater convertible while the Supra will be hard top only. What if someone wants the 2+2 seating and hard top of the Supra with their manual transmission? Further, what if they want the most horsepower offered with 2+2 seating, a hard top and a manual?

I suppose then that the answer will be a Cadillac ATS-V Coupe 6-speed M/T or some version of the Mustang or Camaro. But none of those are a Supra. And all of those are bigger than a Supra.


Absolutely right. All of the specialty high performance cars I mentioned are based on volume chassis that sell more of their numbers in lesser versions. Once you remove those from the equation in today's (North American) market you are left with only a few high performance bespoke chassis models that come with a manual gearbox option: the Ford Mustang, the Chevrolet Camaro, the Corvette the aging 370Z (arguably only now since it used to share its platform with the G35/G37 Coupe) and... I think that's it? The Hyundai Genesis Coupe has been discontinued.

All of those models offer automatics but all of them also offer manuals. Some of them spread the cost around better than others but any of them would be received negatively if no manual option were offered. It is a tricky situation that Toyota is in: they have committed to offering as true a successor to their most famous sportscar as they possibly can and yet they are wrestling with whether or not they can justify offering a very important drivetrain option that will be expected and demanded by fans and buyers alike for as long as it stays in production.

I'm not Akio Toyoda but with the direction the automative world is going in terms of self-driving bubble-pods that shove social media and advertisements at us while we twiddle our thumbs trying to recall what steering wheels used to be like, I'd say that this is still a risk worth taking. No one is asking Toyota to put a manual transmission in their next LFA and while the LC500 could be more interesting with a manual gearbox it has been the upcoming RWD, inline-six twin turbo manual Supra on the horizon that puts the much more expensive automatic-only Lexus super-coupe into clear perspective.

What reso-mod shop would this be that Toyota's competitors have also created for cars in the Supra's price range? Mazda? Honda? Nissan? Ford? Chevrolet?

The last time I checked it was near impossible to register an aftermarket transmission swap with a custom programmed aftermarket ECU (reprogrammed to work with a manual transmission) in some areas. Anywhere in California being a major market. If for instance every two years you try to smog your new Supra with a Tremec Magnum swapped into it you will get an instant fail by the technician and you would not be able to renew your registration.

If you mean a restomod shop created by Toyota for the existing MKIV Supra chassis... this does not exist. Further, there is a growing number of parts that are gradually getting discontinued for the MKIV Supra which will in the future make it difficult to maintain and repair them. Nissan so far has a much better track record with this since they created their limited Heritage Parts Program for the R32 GT-R's.

That was not my point. The Porsche GT3 and GT3 RS are both very special cars with a very particular fan base. They may be priced in the $140k++ range (I can't recall offhand but that should be the ballpark) but Supra MKIV Twin Turbo owners and people who can afford them today are often just as demanding regarding transmission options.

Also, Porsche won't be making the 911 chassis bespoke for too much longer. The newest 992 generation will be the very last 911 chassis that isn't shared with another vehicle. After it ends production the successor 911 (993?) will use a shared Volkswagen chassis. Who knows how close to or off the mark that will make the future 911.

If Porsche eventually won't be able to afford to make a bespoke version of the car that made them and keeps them famous I can further understand why Toyota wasn't able to justify doing the Supra chassis, engine and driveline all on their own and still make it hit a price range at least similar to the MKIV series when adjusted for inflation.

Still, it's a very particular and special car. Given all these things there is a far more relevant argument for a manual Supra than there is for a manual Lexus RC200t/RC350/RC-F or even a manual Lexus LC500.

But if most enthusiasts aren't interested in a manual Veloster N then why did they bother to develop it with that option? Wouldn't an automatic or DCT have been a better fit to maximize their sales? And why do they continue to offer the regular Veloster Turbo with a 6-speed manual?

My point in bringing that one up was more about the similar focus Hyundai had in creating a car that was more about the driving experience rather than benchmarking the fastest competitor on the track.

This is a design goal philosophy that is the exact opposite of what Nissan went after with the GTR. I am saying that there is a small but noticeable trend here and there that is about certain niche performance cars moving away from just chasing lap times and instead going after the driver experience as a primary focus.


Personally I don't feel I was expressing any panic or hyperbole. Passion for what is expected of the model by a majority of people sure. Sure, we have a year to wait until the production version is released and the jury will be out until that time.

The MKIV did price itself out of the market. To build the exact same level of car in a very similar way would make for a much more expensive car than Toyota will be offering. But that doesn't mean that the new one will be bad because it is platform sharing with the only other performance I-6 turbo automaker in the world. The Supra didn't just die because of slowing sales in 2000-2002. Emissions regulations in the USA/Europe and Japan are what killed the MKIV Supra Turbo, Nissan R34 Skyline GT-R, Mazda RX-7 Twin Turbo, Nissan Silvia Spec R and other models all in about the same year. A couple of those might have hung around a couple of more years if not for that reality. By that time there was no more deep capital for any of these companies to use to evolve any of their iconic sportscars.


Yes and no. Yes there are less than the original 12,000 USDM units (NA and TT with both transmissions) to go around and RHD imported models will be available soon but no in terms of the gradually crumbling factory parts support for the MKIV. It depends on the parts needed but if someone is looking for a near stock original model it may become a challenge.

A new Supra following a design philosophy as similar as possible to the 93-02 model is very important. Not everyone wants to or is willing to deal with the realities of owning a vintage low production vehicle that requires hunting for some parts on the used market and a special insurance policy with mileage limitation restrictions.

MKIV enthusiasts are going to be there anyway but people do want a similar kind of experience from the all-new model. At least as much as they can get.

Ultimately we will only know more about this car in about a year's time. But there's nothing wrong with getting excited over something special and legendary coming back and expecting that it be good at the same time. Surprisingly amazing things do happen.

In the last couple of years alone I've had my mind blown by the number of iconic lost *good* movies and TV series that are getting completed or given a continuation amidst a sea of no so notable properties. Some of those turned out well and others... not so well at all when it was obvious what not to have done with them to prevent failure. Seeing the Supra come back and wanting it to be the best it can be while being true to what it is holds no difference for me outside one focus being commercial art entertainment and the other being a famous automobile.

 

Here's some more interesting news:

https://blog.caranddriver.com/more-o...and-much-more/

 

So with the release of the Toyota Supra GR, it's safe to assume that the road going version isn't too far behind although with the gestation period of the Supra being as long as it has been, I wouldn't be surprised if we have to wait another 6 months or so before we see the car. Of course seeing the car doesn't necessarily mean that Toyota will release the specs at the same time.

From what I've read so far, it seems that one thing is constant in that it keeps being reported that the Supra will use a BMW sourced in-line 6 (yes for the in-line 6) and I believe it's been reported to be 3.0L with an automatic transmission. Depending on application, the current 3.0L i6 makes about 335hp I believe. That's a lot by 1998 standards but pretty average for 2018 standards.

So the rumors keeps circulating around the 3.0L and it seems that people have been referring to the n55/b58 engine in the regular 3 series. It seems that people have been referring to the 335hp or so and saying that 335hp is too little for a Supra if it's to fight with some of the competition on the road today. Here's the thing. I'm wondering if Toyota have been coy about the 3.0L because the S55 in the M3 is also a 3.0L but it makes about 444hp depending on application. With a new detuned S55 version supposedly coming out to go into the M2 CS to make about 405hp, I think either of these S55 engines may be the top of the line option for the Supra.

So here's my layout of the engine. S55 with about 405hp to 444hp in the top of the line Supra. N55/B58 with about 335hp in the midline option for the Supra. Now here's the thing. I don't believe that I've read anything confirm for an in-line 4 but if it does happen, I'm guessing it would pull the in-line 4 from the BMW 330 which makes about 248hp. I don't recall the engine code at the moment.

As far as the automatic is concerned, I also think this is a little tricky from Toyota. Although it might not have a traditional 3 pedal manual transmission, it's possible that the automatic transmission is actually referring to a double clutch "automatic" transmission. I've read in various articles and manufacturer specs where they refer to the double clutch transmission as the "automatic" option.

If in fact the Supra does use the S55 engine, I don't think it would be too far fetch to use the M3/M4 double clutch transmission as the "automatic" transmission. If the Supra uses the N55/B58 engine, I don't know that it would have a double clutch "automatic" transmission because I'm not aware of any double clutch application with the N55/B58 engine.

My thoughts. What are yours?

 

According to Autoweek it could price out in the USD $50K range. Similarily in Europe about €50K.

http://autoweek.com/article/geneva-m...lo-supra-coupe

 

I think $50k is about right, but can you really option an 86 up to $40k? I had no idea.