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Happy Holidays. MM Full-Review.....2013/2014 Toyota Avalon

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Old 11-18-13, 10:30 AM
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mmarshall
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Default Happy Holidays. MM Full-Review.....2013/2014 Toyota Avalon

My CL Holiday-Review this year...the 2013/2014 Toyota Avalon.

http://www.toyota.com/avalon/#!/Welcome

IN A NUTSHELL: Excellent fit/finish inside and out, but some flimsy materials and, IMO, a too-firm ride for a luxury-oriented sedan of this class.

CLOSEST AMERICAN-MARKET COMPETITORS: Kia Cadenza, Hyundai Azera, Chevrolet Impala, Ford Taurus, Buick LaCrosse, Chrysler 300 V6.
























OVERVIEW:

Well, Happy Holidays again to everyone at CL. Time for my traditional end-of-year Holiday Review, although, this year, I'm going to move it up a couple of weeks and release it in mid-late November instead of early-mid-December. I had originally planned to review either the big Range Rover or the Range Rover Sport, but, despite their BIG price tags (the Range Rover itself is substantially more expensive than the Sport), there just isn't enough availability of unsold ones for a full review, even here in the vehicle-rich D.C. area. Sure, I could static-inspect and sit in one, without a test-drive, but that would be unacceptable for a Holiday Review. I don't quite understand why, but the demand for them, lately, in this area, has been very high, even with the Land Rover's reputation for unreliability and near-triple-digit price tag, which, with dealer-added mark-ups because of the tight supply, can easily go over the $100,000 mark. So, I decided to simply give up (I can review one later if and when supply increases) and, instead, do the latest Toyota Avalon, which was all-new last year. I think that the new Avalon will be of substantial interest to a number of CL members, as, for the first time in memory, it offers Lexus-grade fit/finish and, IMO, is a REAL alternative to the Lexus ES350. It even exceeds the ES in some areas....more on that later. But is also has a couple of substantial faults...as we'll also see.



Toyota, in response to the enormous success of its Camry in the American market, decided to introduce a somewhat larger, heavier sedan in the fall of 1994 for the 1995 model year, based on an extended-version of the basic Camry platform. The parents of a close friend of mine, who was also my old Flight Instructor, decided to go look at one, and, with me there helping them out through the deal, bought one. I was very much a fan of the first-generation Avalon. It had extremely good build quality, a soft quiet Buick-like ride (which I like), reasonably good handling for the comfort level and soft suspension, and, though not a Mustang GT-competitor by any means, a decent amount of power for everyday driving. It also had something rare for a Japanese-designed car...an American-sedan style front bench-seat option with a column-shift for the transmission (bucket seats and a console, of course, were standard). My friend's parents, not surprisingly, got the bench-seat option, as it increased the amount of room in the front seat and what could be carried there. The first-generation Avalon did not have what I would call a luxury-plush interior, though it was roughly comparable in its durable and high-quality interior materials to that of the brother Camry XLE (the Camrys of that generation were, IMO, the best ones ever built). As I mentioned above, I was a big fan of the that Avalon, and I seriously considered buying one. But being single and not needing the interior room, I ended up springing for a new Iris-Blue Toyota Celica instead...the one with the four big round headlights, built from 1994 to 1999, which I thought was the best-looking Celica ever built.



The first-generation Avalon, though ultimately considered successful in the marketplace, never even approached the massive sales number of its brother Camry (and, of course, still hasn't). The Lexus ES300, which was done on roughly the same platform and used the same drivetrain, of As with other evolving Toyota products of that time-period, I thought the second-generation Avalon, introduced in 1999, was somewhat of a let-down from the first, both in exterior/interior materials/refinement and, to an extent, in ride comfort. Ditto for the third-generation model, which gained some room inside, but also introduced a lot of silver-painted plastic which not only looked cheap and flimsy but also felt that way, and gaudy-looking orange-swirl wood-tone trim. The second-generation model was also stuck with the 3.0L V6 engine that was well-known for its tendency to gel and sludge if not given oil-changes religiously.....much was been written about that in otherforums/ threads, but this review is not the place to get into it very deeply. The third-generation switched to the more reliable 3.5L V6 which was a more tolerant of extended-range oil-changes....its interior received a mild upgrade in trim-quality, but, IMO, was still not terribly impressive. It DID, however, have something impressive in the trunk...a REAL spare tire, which, has become all but extinct except for off-road trucks and SUVs. An all-new (present) fourth-generation model, which was a BIG step up in exterior/interior finish, (now rivaling or exceeding that of some Lexus models), was displayed at the New York Auto Show in 2012 and introduced that fall as a 2013 model...which is carried over for 2014. The 2013 model also, for the first time, introduced a gas/electric hybrid. At the 2013 Washington, D.C. Auto Show last February (with my free show-passes, I go every year for at least 3 or 4 days), I briefly test-drove both conventional and hybrid versions around the official test-course on the city streets around the show's Convention-Center building. But that relatively short drive, of course, on rough city streets at low speeds, is not adequate for what IMO is a complete and credible review, so I usually wait for a more thorough test-drive later.



For 2014, American-market Avalons come in seven trim levels.....XLE, XLE Premium, XLE Touring, Limited, Hybrid XLE Premium, Hybrid XLE Touring, and Hybrid Limited. Base prices run from $31,340 on a base XLE to $41,400 for a Hybrid Limited. All non-hybrids use the same drivetrain...the ubiquitous Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6, tuned in this case to 268 HP and 248 Ft.-lbs. of torque (not quite as much as some rivals), and a 6-speed Sport-Shift automatic transmission. Hybrid versions use a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) and in-line 2.5L four coupled to a 650 Volt AC permanent-magnet electric motor and a nickel-hydride battery-pack. Long-range plug-in hybrids, of course, use the more advanced (and more expensive lithium-ion battery-pack, but the Avalon is a luxury car that is not really designed to compete in this ultra-high-mileage hybrid class. Still, the EPA mileage figures for the hybrid are impressive for a car of this size (38-40 MPG). Toyota, like Lexus (I wonder why not?) does not publish individual HP/Torque figures for its hybrid drivetrains, except to give total system HP....which, in this case, is 200.



For the review, I chose a Silver/Black XLE Premium model. It had what I thought was a reasonable price tag, though it lacked a few of the comfort/convienience features on the upmarket Touring and Limited models. I went over the interior and exterior of this car expecially thoroughly, as I had already reviewed its new ES350 cousin and I wanted to see how this car, in detail, compared to it. The Avalon's competition this, year, especially with the superb new Chevrolet Impala and excellent Kia Cadenza, is especially tough, and to make the grade, the new Avalon clearly has its work cut out for it.

And DID it meet the grade? For my opinion on that matter, of course, read, on.



MODEL REVIEWED: 2014 Toyota Avalon XLE Premium

BASE PRICE: $33,195


OPTIONS:

NAV/Display Audio: $1300

Carpeted Floor/Trunk Mats: $225


DESTINATION/FREIGHT: $810 (about average for a car of this size)

LIST PRICE AS REVIEWED: $35,530.


DRIVETRAIN: FWD, Transversely-mounted 3.5L V6, 268 HP @ 6200 RPM, Torque 248 Ft-lbs. @ 4700 RPM, 6-speed Sport-Shift automatic transmission.

EPA MILEAGE RATING: 21 City, 31 Highway, 24 Combined (XLE, XLE Premium),
25 Combined (XLE Touring, Limited)

EXTERIOR COLOR: Classic Silver Metallic

INTERIOR: Black Leather





PLUSSES:


Typically Toyota/Lexus smooth, quiet, refined drivetrain.

Lexus-grade fit/finish inside and out.

Lexus-grade paint job.

Dull, funeral-home exterior paint colors....but better-looking, IMO, than on some rivals.

Decent underhood layout by luxury-car standards.

Good wind-noise control.

Reasonably good road-noise control.

Well-designed brake pedal.

Decent, though not particularly quick steering response.

Doors close precisely and solidly in spite of thin sheet metal.

Well-carpeted trunk.

Adequate headroom, front and rear, despite low roofline and sunroof.

Adequate rear legroom for most persons.

Easy-to-use radio *****.

Clear, legible primary gauges.

Killer stereo-sound quality to some Lexus standards.

Very impressive-looking dash trim.

Widespread Toyota dealer network for convenience.




MINUSES:

Ride comfort too firm for traditional Avalon buyers.

Noticeably thin sheet metal.

No more wood steering-wheel option.

Annoying (IMO) zig-zag shift-lever.

Insultingly cheap glovebox lid and catch.

Ultra-flimsy, wobbly console-***** for the heated seats.

Complex video-screen readouts.

Dealer-accessory body-side moldings for protection should be standard.

Temporary spare tire (the last-generation Avalon had a real one).

Rear roofline compromises the trunk-lid.

Front and rear seats, IMO, too firmly-padded for ideal comfort.

Rear seats do not fold down on XLE Premium for added cargo space, but include a locking pass-though feature.

Seat-leather grade on XLE Premium model OK, but not particularly slick-feeling.



EXTERIOR:

The first impression one gets of the new Avalon, walking up to it, is that of a slightly oversized and wider Camry (which, to some extent, it IS), with a longer, fast-back roofline and rear-end. The chrome Toyota-family shallow-V grille and swept-back headlights more or less echo those on the Camry, RAV-4, and the new Corolla, so it is immediately identifiable as a new Toyota. The paint job, in the Toyota/Lexus tradition, is first-rate, though, as usual, most of the choice in exterior paint colors, by my standards, is more suited to Harold's Mortuary than to an automobile. Still, the subdued dark blue, dark Cherry red, and the dullish Spruce greenish-gray aren't too bad to look at......I could live with them,as with the Pearl White. The exterior fit/finish was generally up to Lexus standards, and the chromed-plastic trim was superb. The twin side mirrors, as expected in a car of this class, have built-in turn-signal indicators, and snap/swivel and lock smoothly and slickly. I wasn't impressed with the solidity of the exterior sheet-metal, though. As with the new Lexus ES350, it seemed noticeably thinner and lighter-weight than on previous versions. I could fairly easily push the fender-panels in even with one of my fingers. The doors, however, though not very solid-feeling, shut seamlessly and precisely, as if fitted by Swiss Watchmakers....this was also the case on the ES350. An omission on the new Avalon, quite common these days, is the lack of standard body-side moldings for parking-lot protection, but the salespeople said it is a dealer-accessory. IMO, these should be standard....in fact, some automakers are slowly beginning to add them back on again from customer complaints.


UNDERHOOD:

Open up the hood (which doesn't feel quite as thin as the light sheet-metal of the doors and fenders), and there is a nice hood-insulation pad on the underside. Two nice gas struts hold up the hood for you, so you don't have to fumble around with a manual prop-rod....in contrast to the simple prop-rod that Ford uses on even 50K versions of its latest Explorer. Inside, the ubiquitous, transversely-mounted Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6, (which, of course, is used on a number of the corporation's products) fits in fairly well, though a little on the tight side. The usual big plastic engine cover is there, restricting access to virtrually all of the top-engine components, but some access is still available in front and down either side. The battery and its termnals are easily reached, uncovered and right up front, to the right of the engine. The dipsticks, filler-caps, and fluid-reservoirs are mostly easily accessed. Overall, the underhood layout is not bad by today's ultra-restricted luxury-car standards.


INTERIOR:

The interior of the new Avalon, IMO, represents some of both the best and worst of what we have come to expect from Toyota lately. The overall fit/finish level is very high, and the interior chrome, brushed-metal, woodtone trim, and general layout of the trim and looks, IMO, exceeds that of its cousin Lexus ES350, though it lacks the nice Infiniti-style jeweled clock in the ES. I was generally pleased with the dash-trim, which I thought was noticeable step up from the last-generation Avalon. The wood-tone dash trim is not particularly natural-looking, but has a rich, luxurious pattern and color to it, and is well-applied. The material used for the sun-visor coverings and headliner is generally nice and pleasant to touch. The blue/white electro-luminescent back-lit primary gauges are clear and easy to read. The chrome and brushed-metal trim is very nicely done and well-applied. Most of the controls/***** are easy to use and well-marked (in the Toyota tradition) except for a few on the NAV video-screen. Despite the sunroof and its housing, there is adequate headroom for tall persons both front and rear, with a clever scalloping out of part of the rear-ceiling behind the housing-edge that increases headroom by a couple of inches. The leather used for the seat upholstery seemed to be of a nice grade, but its knobbly pattern did not give it a very nice feel....and I felt that both the front and rear seat-cushions were too firmly-padded for a traditional luxury car in the Avalon's class. Legroom in the back was generally good unless the front seat was all the way back, and even then it wasn't the worst I've seen, and adequate for a number of people. The stereo's video-readouts were somewhat on the complex side, though the two big round chromed twist-***** on the dash for it were easy to use, and the stereo's sound quality was a killer....IMO, not very far from the Lexus Mark Levinson units.

But the bean-counters and cost-cutters also hit inside, too.....sometimes with a real vengeance. The former wood-steering wheel option on previous Avalons is now gone....even on the upmarket models. Much of the inside door-panel trim on the inside of the doors, though not bad-looking, has a distinctly light and thin feel to it...the thick, nicely-chromed door-handles are an exception. The shift-lever, like on most Toyota/Lexus products, persists with what I consider the annoying the zig-zag pattern....a straight fore/aft motion, IMO, is much more convenient and makes more sense. The rather small glove-box cover-lid is an insult.....it feels more or less like a plasticized piece of paper, and the equally flimsy latch for it can barely hold it shut. Even worse are the nice-looking but excessively flimsy-feeling small twist-***** on the console for the heated seats. They are so loosely attached that they feel like they will break right off in your fingers as you use them. Overall, though, except for the aforementioned loose/flimsy parts, I generally preferred the Avalon's interior to that of the brother Lexus ES.



CARGO COMPARTMENT/TRUNK:

The fastback shape and extent of the rear roofline (which is becoming the norm for many of today's sedans) does cut into the size of the rear trunk-lid opening somewhat. While reasonably sized packages and bags can be loaded in and out through the opening fairly easily, don't expect to use the Avalon to visit a used-furniture yard sale.....your friendly Toyota salesperson will be happy to sell you a Tacoma/Tundra truck or Sienna Minivan for that. Once past the somewhat restricted opening, however, the trunk itself is quite roomy (this, is, of course, considered a full-size car by today's standards), and quite well-carpeted/finished. On the floor is a gray, nice-feeling, fairly plush carpet with the "Avalon" name stitched into it. On both walls is a blackish-gray thick-fabric covering, not quite as plush-feeling as that of the floor carpet, but nicer than the hard plastic on some cars. The bean counters, on the XLE premium model, installed a fixed/rigid rear seat that does not fold down for extra cargo-room, but does include a nice lockable center pass-through hole for long narrow items like fishing poles, golf clubs, and skis (many traditional Avalon owners, of course, are retired and into those kind of recreational pastimes). Under the floor is a big black styrofoam tray for the jacking tools and mini-compartments, and, underneath that, a temporary spare tire.....a step down from the REAL spare tire on the previous-model Avalon.


ON THE ROAD:

Start up the ubiquitous Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 with a nice engine START-STOP button (the norm for upmarket vehicles today), and the engine (as expected), idles with Lexus-type turbine smoothness/quietness. Like many Lexus products, it comes with a special override system for the starter to keep some people from trying to start it when it's already running (just look at the tach, of course). Power flow is (what else) smooth, quiet and refined, though a small bit of exhaust-chuffle comes in under moderate or more acceleration. The car is no dragster, but it has plenty of power for everyday driving under most conditions. The smooth, quiet transmission is a delight except for the aforementioned zig-zag lever, and can be sport-shifted (or downshifted for steep grades) manually using the lever....the XLE Premium version did not include shift-paddles.

The chassis was generally well-done, but had what IMO was a couple of faults. Chief among those was a too-firm suspension/tires for a luxury-oriented car of this class. I did not notice, on the XLE Premium version, any electronic NORMAL/COMFORT/SPORT adjustments for the suspension either. It's not a terribly-bumpy sports-car ride, but definitely not the comfort that previous Avalons gave. While some buyers might overlook this, I don't think that a lot of the traditional Avalon buyers will. They will probably go across street to the Chevy/Buick/GMC shop to check out the new Chevy Impala, with a substantially smoother ride AND better steering response (an unusual combo).....and my guess is that most of them will go home with an Impala.

Anyhow, the Avalon's electric power-steering has a small amount of road feel/effort to it (about the same as older Toyota hydraulic units) and the steering response is about midway between slow and fast (definitely slower, from what I remember, than the Impala's). There is a small amount of body-lean, but not realy noticeable. Wind noise and road-noise are both well-controlled. In fact, the new Avalon, to my ears, seemed slightly quieter than the new Lexus ES, which has lost sound-insulation compared to the previous model. (all the better, of course, to enjoy the Avalon's excellent stereo). The brake pedal was well-placed for my big size-15 circus-clown shoe to lift up off the gas without catching the under edge of it, and the pedal-effort, interestingly, was higher than I expected. While there wasn't much sloppiness or free-play in the pedal-action itself, you sometimes had to PUSH on this pedal to really get it to respond....something that may not set too well with Grandma's arthritic knees or ankles.


THE VERDICT:

Overall, not a bad effort on Toyota's part for the new Avalon.....and, of course, hybrid versions are available for the first time. I'd say the Avalon's designers, on the surface, achieved their goals in improving the car's fit/finish, overall looks, and visual-appeal of the interior. The drivetrain shows the usual superb Toyota/Lexus refinement, the car is likely to keep its better-than-average reliability rating, and of course, Toyota shops are virtually everywhere if you DO need repairs or warranty-work.


But too many corners, IMO, were cut in the solidness of the basic materials used in this car...from the finger-push-thin body sheet metal to the sometimes insulting flimsiness of some parts of the interior hardware. Chevy's new 2014 Impala has a chassis./suspension/steering that, IMO, easily trumps the one on the Avalon....though the Impala also has a few interior parts of questionable solidity. The all-new Kia Cadenza offers a more solid-feel to its construction than both the Imala and Avalon, but is road manners, IMO, aren't the Impala's equal.


Still, should one choose to opt for the new Avalon (and spends most of his or time on smooth roads, where the suspension stiffness is less-noticeable), it will, in some ways, be money well-spent, especially in the lower-priced versions. The interior trim is pleasant to at least look at, the quiet relaxing drivetrain helps soothe after a hard day at the office, and the Lexus-grade paint job whill shine up real nice after a washing or detailing. Just try not to use those flimsy heated-seat controls any more than you absolutely need to.

Happy Holidays. And, as always......Happy car-shopping.


MM
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Old 11-18-13, 11:16 AM
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Nice review. So in your opinion, is the Avalon or ES better at what they are positioned to do? Most know my answer
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Old 11-18-13, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoovey2411
Nice review.
Thanks. I hadn't planned on the Avalon for the holiday review, but trying to find an unsold new Range Rover that could be test-driven was like getting into the ACA web-site.

So in your opinion, is the Avalon or ES better at what they are positioned to do? Most know my answer
The Avalon, IMO, does it somewhat better. Though disappointing in some respects, it is at least a partial-upgrade from its predecessor. That's more than I can say for the new ES.

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Old 11-18-13, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
Thanks. I hadn't planned on the Avalon for the holiday review, but trying to find an unsold new Range Rover that could be test-driven was like getting into the ACA web-site.
That's true. There's a Land Rover dealer one town over but despite the affluent area I live in I haven't seen any of the new Range Rovers other than the smaller Evoque

Originally Posted by mmarshall
The Avalon, IMO, does it somewhat better. Though disappointing in some respects, it is at least a partial-upgrade from its predecessor. That's more than I can say for the new ES.
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Old 11-18-13, 04:37 PM
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I still plan to do the new Range Rover, if and when they become available. It will be interesting to see why these are in such demand, despite their expense and well-deserved reputation for unreliability.

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Old 11-18-13, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
I still plan to do the new Range Rover, if and when they become available. It will be interesting to see why these are in such demand, despite their expense and well-deserved reputation for unreliability.
At least when they are functional they are comfortable and capable

In my area though it's mainly a status thing
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Old 11-18-13, 06:52 PM
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great review, and i generally agree, it's certainly better than the prior one, but i really didn't like it for a number of reasons.

i find the 'ski slope' dash really strange and the controls weren't very intuitive. i didn't find it particularly quiet (which you acknowledge), and it wasn't that comfortable a ride (which you also acknowledge).

it does have a GIANT trunk and great rear seat room, especially because it's fwd, so no big center tunnel.

it's a nice car, but for that money and type i'd rather get a buick, impala, or taurus.
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Old 11-18-13, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bitkahuna
great review,
Thanks, bit.

and i generally agree, it's certainly better than the prior one, but i really didn't like it for a number of reasons.
Do you remember the 1Gen Avalon from the mid-1990s? THERE was a superb near-luxury car....although I thought the interior was a little too Camry-like and didn't have enough wood trim, it was a superb car in virtually every other way. Looking back, I'm really sorry I didn't buy one.

i didn't find it particularly quiet (which you acknowledge),
It's not LS460 or Mercedes S-Class quiet, I'll admit, but, for the money, the sound insulation is pretty good. Perhaps you drove one with slightly different stock tires from the factory than I did...tire-tread patterns (and wear-patterns on the tread) can definitely make a difference on road noise.

and it wasn't that comfortable a ride (which you also acknowledge).
By my standards (and those in general for luxury-oriented sedans), it was more firm over bumps than it should be (or needs to be). But it was OK on smooth pavement, and a long way from, say, a Miata or Honda S2000's jitteriness


it does have a GIANT trunk and great rear seat room, especially because it's fwd, so no big center tunnel.
Yes, the trunk is fairly large (this is, after all, considered a full size sedan by today's standards). But the fastback styling of the rear roofline, in another sellout to form over function, cuts deeply into the size of the rear trunklid opening. I went into that in the CARGO COMPARTMENT section.


it's a nice car, but for that money and type i'd rather get a buick, impala, or taurus.
I agree that the new Impala handily dusts off the Avalon in a number of ways, and, I think, that if you test-drove a V6 Impala, you would prefer it to both the LaCrosse and Taurus as well. The LaCrosse shares the Impala's superb chassis , but falls down in some of the same things the Avalon does.........light sheet metal and some cheap plastic interior hardware. Along with the Taurus, It does offer the AWD option, though, that the Impala, Avalon, and Cadenza do not.

One of the things, BTW, that sold me on a Verano rather than a LaCrosse, even though the LaCrosse rides smoother, is that the Verano's build-quality, in most areas, feels like a tank in comparison to the Lacrosse....it, of course, uses many German-sourced Opel Astra components, particularly inside and in the sheet metal.

Last edited by mmarshall; 11-18-13 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 11-19-13, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoovey2411
That's true. There's a Land Rover dealer one town over but despite the affluent area I live in I haven't seen any of the new Range Rovers other than the smaller Evoque
Although I haven't formally reviewed or driven an Evoque, from what I saw of it at the D.C. Auto Show last year, I wasn't very impressed. The former Discovery and LR3, I thought, were better designs. The Evoque strikes me more as a fashion statement than a true Land Rover product.
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Old 11-19-13, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
Although I haven't formally reviewed or driven an Evoque, from what I saw of it at the D.C. Auto Show last year, I wasn't very impressed. The former Discovery and LR3, I thought, were better designs. The Evoque strikes me more as a fashion statement than a true Land Rover product.
But then that's the direction they are headed. Splitting between something more traditional like the LR4/upcoming redesigned LR2 vs the more sporty, modern and chić Range Rover Series which includes Range Rover, Range Rover Sport and Range Rover Evoque. The Evoque is genius for it's ability to garner certain demographics with the same appeal as wanting an iPhone. It's a flawed vehicle yes but it's also a vehicle that's saving Land Rover . I digress though, this is about the Avalon
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Old 11-19-13, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoovey2411
The Evoque is genius for it's ability to garner certain demographics with the same appeal as wanting an iPhone. It's a flawed vehicle yes but it's also a vehicle that's saving Land Rover .
Well, look at what is actually selling, though. Evoques sit on the lot looking for customers, while every Range Rover that comes in is sold before it ever reaches the dealership.


I digress though, this is about the Avalon

Agreed. Back to topic. I guess I was the one that took us off by getting into the vehicle I had planned to review, rather than the one I actually did.
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Old 11-20-13, 09:25 AM
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Looks like I might have been both right and wrong about this car at the same time. I haven't seen many new Avalons on the road lately, which indicates that some of its traditional buyers, as I suspected, are defecting to the Impala or other competition. But the new ones I HAVE seen, as are most of the older ones, are still driven mostly by older couples (which is wasn't quite what I had expected), so at least some of the Grampa/Grandma crowd is sticking with it. Old habits, of course, are sometimes hard to break.
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