BMW 3 Series M Sport versus 2014 Lexus IS F Sport
01-10-13, 08:13 PM
#61
Sales number will be a true representative if wither this car is a real winner or not.
I am a lexus fanboy at heart, but I find it hard to believe some of you guys. I am glad lexus is stepping up their design, but even I can admit Lexus being bold this time isn't a good thing. It's not good to be bold when that bold is ugly. The majority of other forums I frequent are saying the 3IS is ugly and even CL is split 50/50; that's not a good sign (I am ignoring interior, haven't heard a single person not like the new interior).
This is similar to when acura went bold and crazy with their design(beak). No one congratulated acura for stepping out and being bold. You only get congratulations for being bold IF the design is good, and from pictures right now, Lexus design doesn't seem to be good. Maybe that will change when the car is seen in RL; much like how the 1 series was ugly in pictures but looks better in real life.
I am a lexus fanboy at heart, but I find it hard to believe some of you guys. I am glad lexus is stepping up their design, but even I can admit Lexus being bold this time isn't a good thing. It's not good to be bold when that bold is ugly. The majority of other forums I frequent are saying the 3IS is ugly and even CL is split 50/50; that's not a good sign (I am ignoring interior, haven't heard a single person not like the new interior).
This is similar to when acura went bold and crazy with their design(beak). No one congratulated acura for stepping out and being bold. You only get congratulations for being bold IF the design is good, and from pictures right now, Lexus design doesn't seem to be good. Maybe that will change when the car is seen in RL; much like how the 1 series was ugly in pictures but looks better in real life.
Last edited by edgeucated; 01-10-13 at 08:17 PM.
01-10-13, 08:33 PM
#62
Pole Position
I'm trying so hard to like the 3IS, I really am. I've looked at it the last 2 days, and hmmmm...
I like the hood.
I actually like the Nike Swoosh LEDs separated from the headlights.
And I like the dead-on rear shot, the lights flow nicely into the body.
But...
I'm still getting used to that grill. Something about that upper placement of the Lexus emblem is throwing me off.
The lower rear side skirt rising dramatically into the rear door demands some proper "shoes" and a decent drop. Without it, that dramatic line will draw everyone eyes to wheel gap and puny rims, when viewed from the side.
The rear doesn't look nearly as good from a direct side profile (but from the side, the front end looks great to me).
Overall, I will applaud Lexus for this dramatic effort. But hmmmmm....
I'll say this, that new BMW 3 series already looks dated next to the 3IS.
And the Lexus interior makes the BMW interior look low-rent.
I like the hood.
I actually like the Nike Swoosh LEDs separated from the headlights.
And I like the dead-on rear shot, the lights flow nicely into the body.
But...
I'm still getting used to that grill. Something about that upper placement of the Lexus emblem is throwing me off.
The lower rear side skirt rising dramatically into the rear door demands some proper "shoes" and a decent drop. Without it, that dramatic line will draw everyone eyes to wheel gap and puny rims, when viewed from the side.
The rear doesn't look nearly as good from a direct side profile (but from the side, the front end looks great to me).
Overall, I will applaud Lexus for this dramatic effort. But hmmmmm....
I'll say this, that new BMW 3 series already looks dated next to the 3IS.
And the Lexus interior makes the BMW interior look low-rent.
Last edited by KevinGS; 01-10-13 at 08:36 PM.
01-10-13, 08:53 PM
#64
Pole Position
Both the 335i and the IS350 will run low-13's at 103-104 mph at the drag strip stock, so yes pretty much a dead heat there. Chip the 335i though and they're running 12's, 11's, etc. The 335i has significantly more torque available pretty much anywhere in the powerband. During normal driving not at the track that makes a difference, but six of one half dozen of the other. The 2GR-FSE clearly does put the power to the ground very well, and always has.
If the 2GR-FSE is falling short anywhere right now it's not power or even power delivery but rather in fuel economy.
2013 BMW 335i Sedan 8AT: 23 mpg city, 33 mpg highway, 26 mpg combined
2013 Lexus IS350 Sedan 6AT: 19 mpg city, 27 mpg highway, 22 mpg combined
Huge difference. If the IS had an 8-speed automatic it might be able to do 1-2 mpg better, but the big advantage of direct-injected turbocharged engines is the fact that they do make so much of that torque just about anywhere, and can pull significantly taller gears as a result. That keeps average RPM lower, friction lower, and average load on the engine higher all of which means better fuel economy, on top of the fact that it's lower in displacement also. When I'm not flogging it, I've been amazed at the fuel economy I can get in my heaviest possible 4000lb E93 convertible, 31-32 mpg straight highway, and that's with the 6 speed automatic.
I do love the crisp feel of nicely tuned naturally aspirated engines and have no problem if Lexus wants to stick with those (it's nice that everybody offers something a bit different), but smaller direct-injected turbo engines do have plenty of advantages to them and BMW in particular is doing a very nice job of exploiting those advantages with their impressive fuel economy numbers.
If the 2GR-FSE is falling short anywhere right now it's not power or even power delivery but rather in fuel economy.
2013 BMW 335i Sedan 8AT: 23 mpg city, 33 mpg highway, 26 mpg combined
2013 Lexus IS350 Sedan 6AT: 19 mpg city, 27 mpg highway, 22 mpg combined
Huge difference. If the IS had an 8-speed automatic it might be able to do 1-2 mpg better, but the big advantage of direct-injected turbocharged engines is the fact that they do make so much of that torque just about anywhere, and can pull significantly taller gears as a result. That keeps average RPM lower, friction lower, and average load on the engine higher all of which means better fuel economy, on top of the fact that it's lower in displacement also. When I'm not flogging it, I've been amazed at the fuel economy I can get in my heaviest possible 4000lb E93 convertible, 31-32 mpg straight highway, and that's with the 6 speed automatic.
I do love the crisp feel of nicely tuned naturally aspirated engines and have no problem if Lexus wants to stick with those (it's nice that everybody offers something a bit different), but smaller direct-injected turbo engines do have plenty of advantages to them and BMW in particular is doing a very nice job of exploiting those advantages with their impressive fuel economy numbers.
The BMW twin turbo inline 6 looks good on EPA cycle but from real life feedback from BMW owners in Singapore, especially when really getting on the gas, the fuel consumption increases precipitiously and overall REAL-LIFE (as opposed to EPA) fuel economy isn't that much better than the Lexus 3.5L normal aspirated 2GR-FSE.
01-10-13, 09:21 PM
#65
To be honest, BMW is gaming the system.
The BMW twin turbo inline 6 looks good on EPA cycle but from real life feedback from BMW owners in Singapore, especially when really getting on the gas, the fuel consumption increases precipitiously and overall REAL-LIFE (as opposed to EPA) fuel economy isn't that much better than the Lexus 3.5L normal aspirated 2GR-FSE.
The BMW twin turbo inline 6 looks good on EPA cycle but from real life feedback from BMW owners in Singapore, especially when really getting on the gas, the fuel consumption increases precipitiously and overall REAL-LIFE (as opposed to EPA) fuel economy isn't that much better than the Lexus 3.5L normal aspirated 2GR-FSE.
01-10-13, 10:05 PM
#66
Lexus Champion
100% City driving..............except if you're taking the long drive to Malaysia (Second Link)
01-10-13, 10:42 PM
#67
I'm struggling with myself to decide is the IS F Sport is really aggressive or just grossly overdone. I hope the regular version will look a little more, um, polished or refined.
I reality though, I don't like seeing "M" models and "F Sport" on non-M and "F" cars; I've never liked how MBZ *****s out that AMG brand... It's a bit of a shame, IMO.
I reality though, I don't like seeing "M" models and "F Sport" on non-M and "F" cars; I've never liked how MBZ *****s out that AMG brand... It's a bit of a shame, IMO.
01-10-13, 11:16 PM
#68
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To be honest, BMW is gaming the system.
The BMW twin turbo inline 6 looks good on EPA cycle but from real life feedback from BMW owners in Singapore, especially when really getting on the gas, the fuel consumption increases precipitiously and overall REAL-LIFE (as opposed to EPA) fuel economy isn't that much better than the Lexus 3.5L normal aspirated 2GR-FSE.
The BMW twin turbo inline 6 looks good on EPA cycle but from real life feedback from BMW owners in Singapore, especially when really getting on the gas, the fuel consumption increases precipitiously and overall REAL-LIFE (as opposed to EPA) fuel economy isn't that much better than the Lexus 3.5L normal aspirated 2GR-FSE.
01-11-13, 02:38 AM
#70
Sales number will be a true representative if wither this car is a real winner or not.
I am a lexus fanboy at heart, but I find it hard to believe some of you guys. I am glad lexus is stepping up their design, but even I can admit Lexus being bold this time isn't a good thing. It's not good to be bold when that bold is ugly. The majority of other forums I frequent are saying the 3IS is ugly and even CL is split 50/50; that's not a good sign (I am ignoring interior, haven't heard a single person not like the new interior).
This is similar to when acura went bold and crazy with their design(beak). No one congratulated acura for stepping out and being bold. You only get congratulations for being bold IF the design is good, and from pictures right now, Lexus design doesn't seem to be good. Maybe that will change when the car is seen in RL; much like how the 1 series was ugly in pictures but looks better in real life.
I am a lexus fanboy at heart, but I find it hard to believe some of you guys. I am glad lexus is stepping up their design, but even I can admit Lexus being bold this time isn't a good thing. It's not good to be bold when that bold is ugly. The majority of other forums I frequent are saying the 3IS is ugly and even CL is split 50/50; that's not a good sign (I am ignoring interior, haven't heard a single person not like the new interior).
This is similar to when acura went bold and crazy with their design(beak). No one congratulated acura for stepping out and being bold. You only get congratulations for being bold IF the design is good, and from pictures right now, Lexus design doesn't seem to be good. Maybe that will change when the car is seen in RL; much like how the 1 series was ugly in pictures but looks better in real life.
You're percentages are off here for CL so how can your gauge be credible for other forums you say a majority are saying the 3IS is ugly?
Remember when the new GS was revealed? Some people on CL were saying they didn't like it either, comparing it to a Hyundai and other cars. In fact, the GS got more hate than the IS on CL.
We all know how much love Lexus really gets outside of their own enthusiasts, how many people hated on the LFA no matter how many of the real experts loved it to death? (ie STIG's favorite supercar of 2011).
People are afraid of change and most haters usually come around if they admit it or not. As for the bimmer boys? The better the competition, the more they will cry. They are afraid of having their ego checked. We all know they hated it when the 4GS was beating the 5 series in comparisons.
01-11-13, 03:40 PM
#71
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To be honest, BMW is gaming the system.
The BMW twin turbo inline 6 looks good on EPA cycle but from real life feedback from BMW owners in Singapore, especially when really getting on the gas, the fuel consumption increases precipitiously and overall REAL-LIFE (as opposed to EPA) fuel economy isn't that much better than the Lexus 3.5L normal aspirated 2GR-FSE.
The BMW twin turbo inline 6 looks good on EPA cycle but from real life feedback from BMW owners in Singapore, especially when really getting on the gas, the fuel consumption increases precipitiously and overall REAL-LIFE (as opposed to EPA) fuel economy isn't that much better than the Lexus 3.5L normal aspirated 2GR-FSE.
01-11-13, 04:19 PM
#73
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I meant the torque. An engine making 300 ft-lbs of torque as low as 1400rpm and pretty much through the whole powerband is definitely going to burn up more fuel than an NA engine with similar peak power, but 240-277 ft-lbs of torque when you're flogging it a lot. In comparison the 2GR-FSE is "throttled" a bit, limited on how much fuel it can consume by the natural aspiration. Don't tap more than about 80% throttle on the BMW to limit the torque you're generating and your fuel consumption won't be dipping below that of the Lexus. 
I've never bought into all of the under-rating BS. It's usually exaggerated a bit by people who have no clue what they're talking about. Track times prove the cars are making similar power, both run low-13's at 103-104 mph stock.
In "normal" controlled driving cycles (EPA) the BMW gets considerably better mileage, and there's plenty of technical reasons for that that make perfect sense so you can't just say EPA is invalid. I'd look up Consumer Reports 150 mile trip reports on the two cars but looks like I forgot to renew. Bummer.
I've never bought into all of the under-rating BS. It's usually exaggerated a bit by people who have no clue what they're talking about. Track times prove the cars are making similar power, both run low-13's at 103-104 mph stock.In "normal" controlled driving cycles (EPA) the BMW gets considerably better mileage, and there's plenty of technical reasons for that that make perfect sense so you can't just say EPA is invalid. I'd look up Consumer Reports 150 mile trip reports on the two cars but looks like I forgot to renew. Bummer.
01-11-13, 04:38 PM
#74
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Not everyone knows what they are buying into when it comes to cars, heck I'm sure it's safe to say most people just assume based on badge and previous models that the particular brand will be amazing forever.
Take the BMW 5 series for example. It sells, but all the car nuts know that with each progressing generation, the 5 series is losing its roots. Look at the F30, got destroyed by the GS, the GS is the superior car, yet the F30 still sells more. Look at the 3 series, the ATS is apparently the better car, yet 3 series still sells in droves.
You can see the point I'm trying to make here. Lexus doesn't necessarily have to be the sales leader in the segment to make a great car, or a successful one.
01-11-13, 05:08 PM
#75
I would agree to a certain extent on this comment. As long as the sales numbers are in a profitable margin, yeah sure, it is successful. To describe a vehicle as a winner though soley through sales isn't indicative of a car's ability.
Not everyone knows what they are buying into when it comes to cars, heck I'm sure it's safe to say most people just assume based on badge and previous models that the particular brand will be amazing forever.
Take the BMW 5 series for example. It sells, but all the car nuts know that with each progressing generation, the 5 series is losing its roots. Look at the F30, got destroyed by the GS, the GS is the superior car, yet the F30 still sells more. Look at the 3 series, the ATS is apparently the better car, yet 3 series still sells in droves.
You can see the point I'm trying to make here. Lexus doesn't necessarily have to be the sales leader in the segment to make a great car, or a successful one.
Not everyone knows what they are buying into when it comes to cars, heck I'm sure it's safe to say most people just assume based on badge and previous models that the particular brand will be amazing forever.
Take the BMW 5 series for example. It sells, but all the car nuts know that with each progressing generation, the 5 series is losing its roots. Look at the F30, got destroyed by the GS, the GS is the superior car, yet the F30 still sells more. Look at the 3 series, the ATS is apparently the better car, yet 3 series still sells in droves.
You can see the point I'm trying to make here. Lexus doesn't necessarily have to be the sales leader in the segment to make a great car, or a successful one.
but yes, this is a great post. absolute sales numbers don't mean much, otherwise people can argue all day mb and bmw are winners coz' they always sell a lot more e and 5 than the gs. but should lexus come back and smile with the es / rs sales numbers that those two brands can't even come close?
they are on different models and most important TARGET. i think the important thing is lexus set a target and whether they can hit the target. for example lexus is very close in hitting the sales target of the gs, i say that is great. it's part of their overall sales / business target. but in order to get there, they do need to have a good product to reach the target. gs is good for what it is.