2014 gs f
09-11-12, 02:28 PM
#32
I think it is easy to be discouraged with the power numbers but 461hp is not the end of the world. Far from it, actually.
1) The GS F will be the second "rational" expansion of the F line, after the IS F, so 461hp says that Lexus is doing something above the IS F but is still testing the waters. I see something more "Audi S6" in execution vs. E63 or M5. With no idea of how it will be received, this is a safer move for Lexus.
2) This plan also allows Lexus to use existing parts and keep the cost down. If they can do $80 - 85k base, this car is going to be about $15 - 20k cheaper than an E63 or M5, which have both now become $95-110k cars. I am not saying that people with this much cash are necessarily looking for value, but 25% less expensive is a hard number for anyone to ignore.
3) Looking at cars like the LFA, FRS and new GS, it's plain to see that Toyota's focus is producing overall driver's cars - not about building the largest engines. They may not be the fastest cars in their respective classes, but they do seem to be the full package - handling, agility, braking, acceleration and feel. I like this philosophy applied to the GS - the FRS formula applied to a midsize sedan, so to speak.
4) Weight reduction has been a big priority for Toyota, so if Lexus can keep the weight down and put in 461hp and say 440 lb-ft of torque, this car will still provide plenty of thrills. Throw in the driving dynamics that Toyota seems to have perfected, and the GS F could be a very compelling option. The M5 is a 4,400lb car. The E63 is a hair over 4,000lbs. If Lexus can keep the GS F to around 3,800lbs like the standard car, it won't need as much HP to provide similar performance, while also being a more rewarding car to drive.
In summary, a GS F as mentioned by Mike and others makes a lot of sense - it's a step above the IS F, it brings a proven and less expensive set of parts which keeps costs down and it will likely deliver upon Lexus' promise to produce cars that are rewarding to drive. This is not the 600hp killer that many were hoping for, but is a logical step for the F brand - something that is only 4 years old. If this generation is successful, I am sure that we will see bigger, bolder moves in the future.
1) The GS F will be the second "rational" expansion of the F line, after the IS F, so 461hp says that Lexus is doing something above the IS F but is still testing the waters. I see something more "Audi S6" in execution vs. E63 or M5. With no idea of how it will be received, this is a safer move for Lexus.
2) This plan also allows Lexus to use existing parts and keep the cost down. If they can do $80 - 85k base, this car is going to be about $15 - 20k cheaper than an E63 or M5, which have both now become $95-110k cars. I am not saying that people with this much cash are necessarily looking for value, but 25% less expensive is a hard number for anyone to ignore.
3) Looking at cars like the LFA, FRS and new GS, it's plain to see that Toyota's focus is producing overall driver's cars - not about building the largest engines. They may not be the fastest cars in their respective classes, but they do seem to be the full package - handling, agility, braking, acceleration and feel. I like this philosophy applied to the GS - the FRS formula applied to a midsize sedan, so to speak.
4) Weight reduction has been a big priority for Toyota, so if Lexus can keep the weight down and put in 461hp and say 440 lb-ft of torque, this car will still provide plenty of thrills. Throw in the driving dynamics that Toyota seems to have perfected, and the GS F could be a very compelling option. The M5 is a 4,400lb car. The E63 is a hair over 4,000lbs. If Lexus can keep the GS F to around 3,800lbs like the standard car, it won't need as much HP to provide similar performance, while also being a more rewarding car to drive.
In summary, a GS F as mentioned by Mike and others makes a lot of sense - it's a step above the IS F, it brings a proven and less expensive set of parts which keeps costs down and it will likely deliver upon Lexus' promise to produce cars that are rewarding to drive. This is not the 600hp killer that many were hoping for, but is a logical step for the F brand - something that is only 4 years old. If this generation is successful, I am sure that we will see bigger, bolder moves in the future.
09-11-12, 02:35 PM
#34
Well ALLRiiiight 
Finally something that's actually attainable on the Real F model line up(aside from the ISF ofcourse). The ISF was the only "Real" F anyone with good credit and a good job can buy there for a while. I'm excited for the GSF's handling capabilities at this point because 461HP isn't exactly an M5 or AMG Black Series killer 
Can't Lexus just round it off to 500hp already?! Stop playing catch up with the Germans and just blow them out of the water(at least power wise). Not a good thing to be just barely up to par. I'm sure the current ISF would be close to 461hp with just mere simple bolt-ons, full exhaust, cold air intake, headers, ground wires and it's there or almost there. COME ON LEXUS
Finally something that's actually attainable on the Real F model line up(aside from the ISF ofcourse). The ISF was the only "Real" F anyone with good credit and a good job can buy there for a while. I'm excited for the GSF's handling capabilities at this point because 461HP isn't exactly an M5 or AMG Black Series killer Can't Lexus just round it off to 500hp already?! Stop playing catch up with the Germans and just blow them out of the water(at least power wise). Not a good thing to be just barely up to par. I'm sure the current ISF would be close to 461hp with just mere simple bolt-ons, full exhaust, cold air intake, headers, ground wires and it's there or almost there. COME ON LEXUS
09-11-12, 02:46 PM
#36
I think it is easy to be discouraged with the power numbers but 461hp is not the end of the world. Far from it, actually.
1) The GS F will be the second "rational" expansion of the F line, after the IS F, so 461hp says that Lexus is doing something above the IS F but is still testing the waters. I see something more "Audi S6" in execution vs. E63 or M5. With no idea of how it will be received, this is a safer move for Lexus.
2) This plan also allows Lexus to use existing parts and keep the cost down. If they can do $80 - 85k base, this car is going to be about $15 - 20k cheaper than an E63 or M5, which have both now become $95-110k cars. I am not saying that people with this much cash are necessarily looking for value, but 25% less expensive is a hard number for anyone to ignore.
3) Looking at cars like the LFA, FRS and new GS, it's plain to see that Toyota's focus is producing overall driver's cars - not about building the largest engines. They may not be the fastest cars in their respective classes, but they do seem to be the full package - handling, agility, braking, acceleration and feel. I like this philosophy applied to the GS - the FRS formula applied to a midsize sedan, so to speak.
4) Weight reduction has been a big priority for Toyota, so if Lexus can keep the weight down and put in 461hp and say 440 lb-ft of torque, this car will still provide plenty of thrills. Throw in the driving dynamics that Toyota seems to have perfected, and the GS F could be a very compelling option. The M5 is a 4,400lb car. The E63 is a hair over 4,000lbs. If Lexus can keep the GS F to around 3,800lbs like the standard car, it won't need as much HP to provide similar performance, while also being a more rewarding car to drive.
In summary, a GS F as mentioned by Mike and others makes a lot of sense - it's a step above the IS F, it brings a proven and less expensive set of parts which keeps costs down and it will likely deliver upon Lexus' promise to produce cars that are rewarding to drive. This is not the 600hp killer that many were hoping for, but is a logical step for the F brand - something that is only 4 years old. If this generation is successful, I am sure that we will see bigger, bolder moves in the future.
1) The GS F will be the second "rational" expansion of the F line, after the IS F, so 461hp says that Lexus is doing something above the IS F but is still testing the waters. I see something more "Audi S6" in execution vs. E63 or M5. With no idea of how it will be received, this is a safer move for Lexus.
2) This plan also allows Lexus to use existing parts and keep the cost down. If they can do $80 - 85k base, this car is going to be about $15 - 20k cheaper than an E63 or M5, which have both now become $95-110k cars. I am not saying that people with this much cash are necessarily looking for value, but 25% less expensive is a hard number for anyone to ignore.
3) Looking at cars like the LFA, FRS and new GS, it's plain to see that Toyota's focus is producing overall driver's cars - not about building the largest engines. They may not be the fastest cars in their respective classes, but they do seem to be the full package - handling, agility, braking, acceleration and feel. I like this philosophy applied to the GS - the FRS formula applied to a midsize sedan, so to speak.
4) Weight reduction has been a big priority for Toyota, so if Lexus can keep the weight down and put in 461hp and say 440 lb-ft of torque, this car will still provide plenty of thrills. Throw in the driving dynamics that Toyota seems to have perfected, and the GS F could be a very compelling option. The M5 is a 4,400lb car. The E63 is a hair over 4,000lbs. If Lexus can keep the GS F to around 3,800lbs like the standard car, it won't need as much HP to provide similar performance, while also being a more rewarding car to drive.
In summary, a GS F as mentioned by Mike and others makes a lot of sense - it's a step above the IS F, it brings a proven and less expensive set of parts which keeps costs down and it will likely deliver upon Lexus' promise to produce cars that are rewarding to drive. This is not the 600hp killer that many were hoping for, but is a logical step for the F brand - something that is only 4 years old. If this generation is successful, I am sure that we will see bigger, bolder moves in the future.
1) please explain to me why it was ok for lexus to have a isf that's so on par with the m3 on hp, and somewhat in the ball park with the c63? i would like to remind again, in the beginning lexus intentionally said the isf will have over 400hp (not exact figure) and only said the number after bmw revealed m3 numbers. now suddenly hp is not that important and don't even have to be in the same ball park?
2) there is s6, and then there is rs6, which is really what competes with m5 and e63. s6 is nothing more than just the v8 version of the a6 line. if that's what lexus wants to do, then they shouldn't even touch the f lineup name. as i pointed out before, audi s is not what it used to be anymore, rs is the one
3) if price is a concern slowing lexus from making a true f car, then i say don't make it. i consider f brand more important than trying to sell a car that has a very small market share to begin with. lexus is able to make the isf with on par power as the m3 and c63 for over 10k cheaper on msrp. so we know it's doable
4) try to sell feel and see how tough that is. lfa and frs i consider them quite different. lfa is a limited exotic super car, market is very different. frs doesn't have direct competitors so to speak. so toyota / lexus have more freedom. gs is DIRECTLY competing with e and 5. one can argue all day long but 90% of the people out there will the cars together to compare
5) weight is probably the best advantage of the gs, no doubt on that. however you also have to fully understand this market / segment, people who actually have the buying power to get a 100k car like this. most of them want the bragging rights and power, driving is sadly secondary (or third?). i see plenty of people in this segment, i was this close from getting a m5 / e63 myself. most people they don't even know how to really drive, let alone handling all the power. so if they only care about showing people the m / amg badge and that they are in the "500hp club", how would the gsf fare?
i want gsf as much as the next guy, but it's hard for me to see how this "makes a lot of sense". if they just want a more powerful v8 plant in the gs, fine i am totally happy, but if they actually want to put the f badge on the car, then i say they need to make it a serious game. otherwise they are just destroying all the good things that isf and lfa have created. it won't be the end of the world, but it would be hard to make it a good case
09-11-12, 02:49 PM
#37
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Yes your totally right. They should at least give it 500hp though, still underpowered compared to the M5's 560hp and E AMG's 518hp, but if they keep the weight down, it should compete fairly well.
09-11-12, 03:10 PM
#39
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^^ I disagree. The LFA, FRS( triplets) and new GS show you don't need tops in power to be lauded and praised by critics. None of those vehicles are tops in power but they have enough. What they do have in spades is passion, soul and a chassis that BEGS to be driven hard. In the past it seems Lexus had power in many forms but the chassis lacked. This is no longer the case with these new vehicles.
Lexus is cautious in most cases, this is a cautious move and since it seems like the same 5.0 V-8 tuned for more power they felt the engine was more than enough. However to most not paying attention to every move the competition makes a 461hp GS F will be jaw-dropping and like the IS F the only offering from Asia of this nature.
So Lexus will surely lose the **** measuring hp war (and I surely am not saying anythign bad about 500/55/600hp) here but they have a amazing chance to have the best driving car in the segment since it will surely be lighter than everyone.
Just with Lexus owners only, its a telling sign when many IS F owners have bought a GS F-sport. They love the additional room and chassis and tech even if the car is down on power. What they love is the DRIVE.
I am going out on a limb here to say that the GS F is going to drive utterly brilliant in a segment full of overpowering cars.
Lexus is cautious in most cases, this is a cautious move and since it seems like the same 5.0 V-8 tuned for more power they felt the engine was more than enough. However to most not paying attention to every move the competition makes a 461hp GS F will be jaw-dropping and like the IS F the only offering from Asia of this nature.
So Lexus will surely lose the **** measuring hp war (and I surely am not saying anythign bad about 500/55/600hp) here but they have a amazing chance to have the best driving car in the segment since it will surely be lighter than everyone.
Just with Lexus owners only, its a telling sign when many IS F owners have bought a GS F-sport. They love the additional room and chassis and tech even if the car is down on power. What they love is the DRIVE.
I am going out on a limb here to say that the GS F is going to drive utterly brilliant in a segment full of overpowering cars.
09-11-12, 03:16 PM
#41
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Posts: n/a
I am happy in a way Lexus is not getting into the "OMG I GOT MORE POWER THAN YOU" wars with the LFA, FRS, GS etc. What the new cars have in spades is a brilliant chassis, tranny and suspension that drips with passion and feedback. Lets be honest, the 500hp M5 was more than enough, the 550hp is really to outdo the competition.
The GS chassis is begging for more power and I think 461hp or so will match perfectly and give people what they want. Its not like the IS F or LFA had most power in class and reviews have raved over both vehicles.
You want power nothing can beat the turbo Germans..chip it and bam 600/700hp
Not if you are going to chip it. Performance packs makes little sense when you can get 100-150hp more from Renntech for 3 grand.
The GS chassis is begging for more power and I think 461hp or so will match perfectly and give people what they want. Its not like the IS F or LFA had most power in class and reviews have raved over both vehicles.
You want power nothing can beat the turbo Germans..chip it and bam 600/700hp
Not if you are going to chip it. Performance packs makes little sense when you can get 100-150hp more from Renntech for 3 grand.
let's just hope that it will be reasonably priced
09-11-12, 04:27 PM
#44
sure if we want to stick with driving part i am sure the gsf will be fun to drive. heck with the way the gs350 drives i can imagine what more power would be like to it. but at the end of the day, like i said, how many actual owners in this segment really put driving as primary concern? i attended bmw m school myself, and i have seen plenty of m / amg drivers. a lot of their driving skills are face-palm at best, which really makes you wonder why they got their cars. simple answer is for the badge / bragging rights / paper race.
lfa drives brilliantly, i love it. but we see how it's selling against others. frs is definitely selling very very well, but i think we all agree their target audience is extremely different (when you can get more than 3 frs for the price of a gsf / m5 / e63).
if anything, i think isf has been a great indication. till this point no one has really come back to me about why lexus had to play the hp game the way they did it. my next question is, go ask those who are shopping for the isf (cheaper in general) if instead of 415hp, lexus made the isf back in 2008 with say 365hp (similar ratio), how would they feel
i am not even talking about critics (we all know by now how critics look at fun to drive vs badge), i am just talking from a marketing / sales point of view. it's one tough sell
you are right that to a lot of people 461 would still be jaw dropping. heck, when talking to my coworkers i said my m3 has over 400hp and s550 with 380hp and they praise me like god already. but you know what, they are DEFINITELY not, and will never, be in the market of a 100k car either.
lfa drives brilliantly, i love it. but we see how it's selling against others. frs is definitely selling very very well, but i think we all agree their target audience is extremely different (when you can get more than 3 frs for the price of a gsf / m5 / e63).
if anything, i think isf has been a great indication. till this point no one has really come back to me about why lexus had to play the hp game the way they did it. my next question is, go ask those who are shopping for the isf (cheaper in general) if instead of 415hp, lexus made the isf back in 2008 with say 365hp (similar ratio), how would they feel
i am not even talking about critics (we all know by now how critics look at fun to drive vs badge), i am just talking from a marketing / sales point of view. it's one tough sell
you are right that to a lot of people 461 would still be jaw dropping. heck, when talking to my coworkers i said my m3 has over 400hp and s550 with 380hp and they praise me like god already. but you know what, they are DEFINITELY not, and will never, be in the market of a 100k car either.
Last edited by rominl; 09-11-12 at 04:30 PM.
09-11-12, 04:35 PM
#45
In this segment they NEED to be at least in the right ballpark to be taken seriously as a contender. Audi can get away with 420hp in an S6 because they still have an RS line they can dangle the carrot with even if they never make a RS6.
It's all in the badge perception. Lexus has nothing between the F-Sport (no hp gain) and F (M competitor) so to come out with a GS-F with 460hp they'd be laughed out of the stage even before any serious M or AMG buyers pick up a brochure. At 460hp even at thousands less than an M5 only the most devout Lexus performance fans will take one home. And honestly, how many of those exist in the grand scheme of things? It will never be the "dream car", the car that people put up as wallpapers on their work computers dreaming of the day they take delivery of one after the big bonus they'll get if they work their ***** off for the next few years. When you get to this segment it's all about show-offey numbers and the fact their big sedan can go faster than yours, even more so in this segment than the M3/C63/IS-F group. Unless there's a huge weight advantage to the GS-F you'd be able to show off all you want UNTIL the day your neighbor or co-worker drives in with an M5 or E63. That aspect is a huge part of what gives the M5 it's allure. Lexus fans will bark "reliability" all we want but reliability isn't sexy. Reliability doesn't sell posters and most importantly doesn't make people with wads of cash drool in the showroom.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.
It's all in the badge perception. Lexus has nothing between the F-Sport (no hp gain) and F (M competitor) so to come out with a GS-F with 460hp they'd be laughed out of the stage even before any serious M or AMG buyers pick up a brochure. At 460hp even at thousands less than an M5 only the most devout Lexus performance fans will take one home. And honestly, how many of those exist in the grand scheme of things? It will never be the "dream car", the car that people put up as wallpapers on their work computers dreaming of the day they take delivery of one after the big bonus they'll get if they work their ***** off for the next few years. When you get to this segment it's all about show-offey numbers and the fact their big sedan can go faster than yours, even more so in this segment than the M3/C63/IS-F group. Unless there's a huge weight advantage to the GS-F you'd be able to show off all you want UNTIL the day your neighbor or co-worker drives in with an M5 or E63. That aspect is a huge part of what gives the M5 it's allure. Lexus fans will bark "reliability" all we want but reliability isn't sexy. Reliability doesn't sell posters and most importantly doesn't make people with wads of cash drool in the showroom.
CTS-V owners would laugh. Even C63's with AMG performance packs would be able to heartily chuckle at the GS-F. Lexus needs better numbers or they're doomed to fail in this arena.
Last edited by IceIridium; 09-11-12 at 04:39 PM.
