bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

be careful what you wish for... can't be for huge fuel economy requirements and also be a critic of not offering v8's. well you can, but they're not both happening. v8's? hell we won't even have v6's if we need huge mpgs, except in cars for the "1%" who can afford just about any fuel and vehicle price. automakers would be forced to make less fuel efficient vehicles VERY expensive, so they're not bought by a lot of people (which would thus lower an average fuel economy).

but hey, why stop there? why not require 100mpg in 5 years? it's just an 'incentive' right? and sure it won't make vehicles much more expensive or have any other unintended consequences.

SteVTEC

Correct. Prices have not skyrocketed.

Yet.

But what cost increase do you think there's going to be to be able to hit fleet averages of 54.5 mpg by 2025? That's literally right around the corner in terms of automotive development cycles. Auto manufacturers are looking at technologies that are deployable and ready for prime time within just 5 years to be able to hit those numbers.

About $10,000 is the estimate. Sorry but all the low hanging fruit has already been picked with direct injected turbo engines, more diesels, lower cost hybrid systems, and 6/7/8 speed automatics and CVTs. What's next? Even a Prius does not hit 52.5 mpg combined, and a Prius is not gonna work for everybody. How would you like a base model Honda Accord to cost $31,000 rather than $21,000 today? Or $40k for a loaded model? GM is selling the Volt for $40k without government incentives and is making no money on them at all.

These timelines are not gonna hold and for plenty of good reasons, and no it's not because of "big oil". I like that they've spurned some really good and improved cars like you, but it was always too aggressive of a goal.

RXSF

whats wrong with 100 mpg?

in all seriousness, Auto makers are already catching on on what they need to do. That is, make an electric vehicle to balance/offset their gas vehicles to meet the average.

SteVTEC

Liberals are the party of big ideas and big dreams and a better tomorrow. Conservatives are the party of sanity and reality. Why are conservatives opposed to these standards? Because they're going to severely limit people's choices while also sending prices through the roof. People are going to balk, not buy new cars and keep their reasonably efficient older cars on the road for a lot longer, sales will drop, jobs will be lost, and with fewer new cars on the road it will completely defeat the purpose of the improved standards in the first place. What good are new fuel efficiency standards for "saving fuel" if they make cars so friggin expensive that nobody buys them? Conservatives are not "anti-progress", they're pro-reality and sanity.

The timeline for these standards will not hold. Trust me.

SteVTEC

And since those are niche vehicles at this point that few people are buying or will buy, that will never happen. $35k for a small vehicle that will only go 100 miles in the best possible conditions, and way less than that in other conditions. Most people only have 1 car each and are gonna need something that will get them further than that and that's a little bigger, like a $21k Honda Accord.

RXSF

I dont think the legislation says anything about the number of vehicles sold, does it? All it says is the automakers average mpg in the line up.

SteVTEC

They keep changing things around so often that I can't even keep track, so I don't know. Historically, sales volumes counted. So 15 Volts aren't going to do much to offset 10,000 Impalas. That may or many not be the case anymore.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i believe it's the average of what is sold not just available.

this is why ford has partnered with toyota for example to do a hybrid f-150 because it is the highest selling vehicle in the u.s. and skews their afe greatly. they've also eliminate the v8 option from explorer, and no doubt there will be big changes in other popular vehicles.

LeX2K

Not necessarily. Burning petrol is 100% guaranteed to produce pollution, electric energy can and is made cleanly. At the very least, there is potential for cleaner means of transportation. And it has been well established that burning fuel at a central location on a large scale increases efficiency, and allows you to control the emissions more effectively.

Vladi

Problem is people don't know what they want they just get into the loop and buy what is served to them. Prettier the platter means better buys. You have to be informed intellectual individual to know what you need or want and be ready to get out of the loop. Don't get me wrong there are a lot of people like that and that's what makes this place a lot better but majority still acts like a heard, when they hear the bell off they go.

Allen K

iTrader: (4)

Still takes oil to make the solar panel

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

over 50% of this country's electricity comes from coal plants. That pollution doesnt disappear you've merely shifted the location where the pollution is created. And its too bad the environazis keep stopping every nuclear plant that wants to get built. Nuclear power is truly the cleaner form of energy.

so if no one buys that vehicle because its retardly expensive like the Volt, then what exactly is this legislation solving? So the company has to sink a ton of money making a car that no one will buy just to sit around. Guess who pays for that, the customer. This stuff isnt free. BTW for this grand scheme to work, people have to buy a new car. Who wants to buy a new car once were deep into the 2017-2025 model years when the cars are going to get so neutered and expensive to meet these increasing requirements. Like I said older cars will be more desirable, its the 1970s all over again when people kept their cars from the 50s and 60s. Tehres a reason all the memorable classic cars came from the 50s and 60s. There was barely anything memorable in the 70s and 80s.

One sure fire way to increase mpg is to reduce the vehicle weight or juice your wheelbase x track size for that stupid equation in this legislation to reduce the mpg requirements. That equation someone created is designed to give bias to truck mileage. The smaller the wheelbase x width is, the higher the mpg requirement is. Guess what sportscars, youre toast. But if the wheelbase x track size is bigger it doesnt have as stringent requirements (so it benefits trucks). So cars are now going to be specifically designed around this dumbass equation the govt created. Not that the equation has anything to do with truly designing fuel efficient vehicles.

SteVTEC

Most people, even those who don't know too much about or even care about cars, know what they want. Something reliable and fuel efficient that's big enough for their needs, that hopefully doesn't look like a turd, and is not too expensive. Even my mom, who is not computer savvy at all, can work out on paper that a Camry Hybrid was never actually going to "save" her any money. I felt bad and whipped out Excel and did it in 5 minutes to save her the trouble, but still... You hardly need to be an informed and "intellectual" individual to be able to make a decent car choice for yourself. That's ridiculous. Knowing how to properly calibrate a phased array antenna system, yeah that takes a bit of know-how. Car buying isn't rocket science.

SteVTEC

Right.

I remember whenever these proposed standards came out that there were more than a few articles pointing out that the value of used cars could actually appreciate over time. Enough people would balk at a $30k base model Camry or Accord that they simply wouldn't buy them, and would be more than happy to pickup a used one for $20-25k instead, even if it only sold for $20k originally brand new!!

These standards look far better and paper and feel far better to say than they'll actually be in reality.

LexFather

Believe that if you want to Steve Everytime the "SKY IS FALLING" patrol comes in, the sky does not fall. The auto industry keeps getting better and AGAIN why are you or any dissidents completely overlooking the facts!!

As MPG standard requirements have raised
1. Cars are getting MORE POWERFUL and MORE EFFICIENT
2. Car sales have REBOUNDED
3. We still can choose dozens of 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 1,000hp cars

What is the exact issue? Me thinks it really just has everything to do with "OMG the other side wants to do something, we cannot agree on the basis of we like to disagree for the sake of disagreement"!!!

Steve whats ironic bud is your new X5 diesel would not be shipped here to America if the liberal guys you seem to hate didn't raise requirements.