2013 Lexus LS Unveiling
07-10-12, 08:08 AM
#77
Moderator
Minor nitpick here, but I sure hope this new LS has minimal fender gap..especially the F Sport....Sport should not have fender gap. BMW and other car makers have a very nice stance already. With good fender well and suspension design, they really could reduce the overall gap to make it appear more sporty yet still ride like Lexus cars do. Again, there are ways to fix fender gap, I know..just sayin. I'm hoping for some leaked photos soon!!! I think it is going to surprise a lot of people..the flagship has to come hard for the entire brand sake!
07-10-12, 08:49 AM
#78
Lexus Test Driver
I think that would be a huge mistake for a "new" LS. It wasn't good for the GS either but you don't want your brand new LS buyers having a lesser car than the people buying one model year newer a year later. The "new" LS can't have an even newer drivetrain a year later. Hyundai did this with the Equus and that was stupid as well.
07-10-12, 10:09 AM
#79
Minor nitpick here, but I sure hope this new LS has minimal fender gap..especially the F Sport....Sport should not have fender gap. BMW and other car makers have a very nice stance already. With good fender well and suspension design, they really could reduce the overall gap to make it appear more sporty yet still ride like Lexus cars do. Again, there are ways to fix fender gap, I know..just sayin. I'm hoping for some leaked photos soon!!! I think it is going to surprise a lot of people..the flagship has to come hard for the entire brand sake!
just don't get too excited with the car shown at debut, it's going to be lowered. all manufacturers do that
07-10-12, 10:14 AM
#80
Pole Position
If they release a 2013 car without available AWD, Northeast dealers will be in trouble. Few, if any, will buy an LS around here (I'm in Pittsburgh) without AWD. My guess, however, is that since the drivetrain sounds the same, they'll probably release AWD out of the gate. Frankly this sounds like the same 'ol car warmed over. I love my 2009...not knocking it. But this does NOT sound like the same magnitude of change from the 2006 LS430 to the 2007 LS460
07-10-12, 10:19 AM
#81
considering the call it "new" 2013 LS while they call F-Sport "all-new", i suspect it is really an facelift like RX and that we might not see large changes in interior, just exterior, especially f-sport. So some different colors inside, few materials changed, new steering wheel and thats about it... with f-sport having slightly different suspension and transmission, similar to Sport model we had last year and much more in-your-face grille?
It all depends on where you are located. Where I live, S65s are common. (210k MSRP)
In Bozeman? Probably not. In LA or Miami, yes they would sell.
Cars like that are not made for high volume sales anyway. See: LF-A. (Which is almost sold out).
The main point is to draw attention to the brand, not the actual car. If Lexus followed your rationale, we would have never seen the LF-A or IS-F. This is a brand, in dire need of some performance vehicles.
I for one, would welcome any new TMG or F models. IMO it's critical if Lexus wants to increase sales.
In Bozeman? Probably not. In LA or Miami, yes they would sell.
Cars like that are not made for high volume sales anyway. See: LF-A. (Which is almost sold out).
The main point is to draw attention to the brand, not the actual car. If Lexus followed your rationale, we would have never seen the LF-A or IS-F. This is a brand, in dire need of some performance vehicles.
I for one, would welcome any new TMG or F models. IMO it's critical if Lexus wants to increase sales.
gaining brand reputation is very important, i agree, but by doing a ls-f is going to gain you very minimal return. having high performance models work much better in mid size (5, e, gs, a6) and even more so in small size (3, c, is, a4), but in flagship big sedan, not really.
look at the market, bmw doesn't even have anything (sorry but b7 is not by bmw). in my eyes the only real player is mb with s63 and s65. they are like doing it just because, and they have the long history of brand loyalty and followers to just pay whatever money for no idea what they are getting (i am serious).
so yes, i think cars like lfa, isf, they are very important in improving the brand image of lexus. but is ls-f critical right now? i don't think so. get a gsf, push out a real coupe again (sc) and make a scf, now those mean a lot more
07-10-12, 10:31 AM
#82
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The Genesis Spec R and Taurus SHO are also both quicker than a LS460 Sport.... Just saying.
2 used. One at MSRP. One 5k over.
5 on Dupont starting at 5k over MSRP.
11 total, and into the single digits on custom orders.
Last edited by NoLFA4U; 07-10-12 at 10:50 AM.
07-10-12, 10:37 AM
#83
i really don't know what your point is.
did porsche and aston martin start their history / heritage / reputation, etc... with sedan? they entered the market after they have well established their position and just to gain that small extra share, especially existing customers. the rapide isn't even selling that well. the panamera is selling great, but do you think they are stealing buyers from ls, 7, s?
bentley, you aren't seriously comparing it to mb, bmw, and lexus right? they have been the next step of these "common" brands.
let's focus on brands that are "together" with lexus
did porsche and aston martin start their history / heritage / reputation, etc... with sedan? they entered the market after they have well established their position and just to gain that small extra share, especially existing customers. the rapide isn't even selling that well. the panamera is selling great, but do you think they are stealing buyers from ls, 7, s?
bentley, you aren't seriously comparing it to mb, bmw, and lexus right? they have been the next step of these "common" brands.
let's focus on brands that are "together" with lexus
07-10-12, 11:01 AM
#84
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You said this:
I then posted 7 examples of big performance sedans.
A consumer will probably not cross shop a LS and a Bentley Speed, but my point remains the same. Consumers want big performance sedans. That's why every other brand has one. Even Ford and Hyundai. Both faster than the fastest LS.
And what about the 300C SRT8 and STSV? Or the Audi S8 with a V10?
A consumer will probably not cross shop a LS and a Bentley Speed, but my point remains the same. Consumers want big performance sedans. That's why every other brand has one. Even Ford and Hyundai. Both faster than the fastest LS.
And what about the 300C SRT8 and STSV? Or the Audi S8 with a V10?
Last edited by NoLFA4U; 07-10-12 at 11:05 AM.
07-10-12, 11:07 AM
#85
Driver School Candidate
Boooooring
I could buy a fully-loaded Infiniti M56 with a 5.6 liter / 420 HP / 417 lb-ft torque engine or Hyundai Equus Ultimate with a 5.0 liter / 429 HP / 376 lb-ft torque engine for less than what the LS460 starts at. Those cars may not be as silent or smooth as the LS460, but they're pretty darned close and a lot less expensive.
Had Lexus announced an LS550 or something along the lines of an AMG-type option, I would have been the first at my dealership with a check. But unless the 2013 LS flies, I'll save my money and get a "lesser" car with just as many bells and whistles as this new LS will likely have.
07-10-12, 11:10 AM
#86
You said this:
I then posted 7 examples of big performance sedans.
A consumer will probably not cross shop a LS and a Bentley Speed, but my point remains the same. Consumers want big performance sedans. That's why every other brand has one. Even Ford and Hyundai. Both faster than the fastest LS.
And what about the 300C SRT8 and STSV? Or the Audi S8 with a V10?
I then posted 7 examples of big performance sedans.
A consumer will probably not cross shop a LS and a Bentley Speed, but my point remains the same. Consumers want big performance sedans. That's why every other brand has one. Even Ford and Hyundai. Both faster than the fastest LS.
And what about the 300C SRT8 and STSV? Or the Audi S8 with a V10?
and for lfa, i am not going further seeing your username, but yes, good luck with selling out
Last edited by rominl; 07-10-12 at 11:24 AM.
07-10-12, 11:14 AM
#87
Moderator
I found this article interesting about the TMG LS.
Toyota and Lexus to launch TMG performance sub-brand
June 20, 2012
Toyota may launch a new performance range, called TMG.
Race division to develop high performance TMG range for Toyota and Lexus.
Toyota will launch a new performance division from the ashes of its defunct formula one team. Toyota Motorsport GmBH (TMG) president Yoshiaki Kino****a confirmed that his company has begun work on high-performance road cars which will carry the TMG badge.
“I cannot show you today but we have such kind of car, not an AMG; change the A to T,” Kino****a said.
“It’s official plan. After we stopped formula one, we decided several things. One of the things was to become a homologated [performance car] company.”
A glimpse of Toyota's new TMG performance range.
The first development is a Lexus LS460 sedan that is being heavily modified by the engineers at the state-of-the-art factory based in Cologne, Germany.
TMG technical director Pascal Vasselon said TMG would give the car a complete overhaul rather than just be a tuning operation.
“We are not looking to do tuning,” Vasselon said. “We are looking to do high-performance cars.”
TMG logo.
The LS is powered a 485kW twin-turbo V8 petrol engine coupled to a dual-clutch transmission. It also features re-styled bodywork – including a large rear wing – and the suspension has also been overhauled.
It has already been tested at the Nurburgring in Germany and Japan; it is likely to debut at the Essen motor show in September..
But the LS is just one of several Lexus and Toyota models that TMG is assessing for its new hot-rod range.
One obvious choice for a higher performance version is the Toyota 86 sports car that recently went on sale. But tellingly Kino****a ruled out the new 86 coupe because it was “too small” suggesting the initial plan calls for the bigger, more expensive Lexus models to be given priority.
“It’s one of the trials for which kind of car we can make,” Kino****a said. “Our strong point is we can make special chassis and special engines and special aerodynamics. Our weakest point is how to get the [car to meet the stricter] Euro V emissions, how to get Euro VI, how to get homologations. So we are now learning these things.”
Although the final decision has yet to be made on going ahead with the TMG brand, Kino****a is confident.
Vasselon said a decision could come before the end of the year.
“It’s something to be finalised in the next six to nine months,” Vasselon said.
“Which badge has on the car is one of the decision that needs to be made in the next few months.”
Toyota's history in performance tuned cars isn't strong; only recently it tried to take on local heroes HSV and FPV with a supercharged version of its Aurion large car and Hilux ute - sold under the TRD, or Toyota Racing Development badge - but the project flopped.
Toyota invested heavily in the TMG factory in Colonge during its time in formula one. It is capable of producing and testing every aspect of a racing car and can accommodate up to 1000 staff.
Asked if the idea was to turn the TMG factory into Toyota’s answer to AMG Kino****a was quick to respond.
“Yes,” he said.
The factory is not big enough to produce the cars but would instead become the design and development of the cars.
TMG is also responsible for Toyota’s Le Mans program which uses a super capacitor hybrid system; which provides a larger power boost compared to a conventional hybrid system. Vasselon admitted that TMG has looked at using the super capacitors in the road cars.
“We have been thinking about it, but we have nothing actively in development,” he said.
Kino****a also revealed that TMG is also working on a potential return to the World Rally Championship using a hybrid Yaris and a new 1.6-litre turbocharged petrol engine that can be used for rallying and the World Touring Car Championship.
http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...620-20mqk.html
Toyota and Lexus to launch TMG performance sub-brand
June 20, 2012
Toyota may launch a new performance range, called TMG.
Race division to develop high performance TMG range for Toyota and Lexus.
Toyota will launch a new performance division from the ashes of its defunct formula one team. Toyota Motorsport GmBH (TMG) president Yoshiaki Kino****a confirmed that his company has begun work on high-performance road cars which will carry the TMG badge.
“I cannot show you today but we have such kind of car, not an AMG; change the A to T,” Kino****a said.
“It’s official plan. After we stopped formula one, we decided several things. One of the things was to become a homologated [performance car] company.”
A glimpse of Toyota's new TMG performance range.
The first development is a Lexus LS460 sedan that is being heavily modified by the engineers at the state-of-the-art factory based in Cologne, Germany.
TMG technical director Pascal Vasselon said TMG would give the car a complete overhaul rather than just be a tuning operation.
“We are not looking to do tuning,” Vasselon said. “We are looking to do high-performance cars.”
TMG logo.
The LS is powered a 485kW twin-turbo V8 petrol engine coupled to a dual-clutch transmission. It also features re-styled bodywork – including a large rear wing – and the suspension has also been overhauled.
It has already been tested at the Nurburgring in Germany and Japan; it is likely to debut at the Essen motor show in September..
But the LS is just one of several Lexus and Toyota models that TMG is assessing for its new hot-rod range.
One obvious choice for a higher performance version is the Toyota 86 sports car that recently went on sale. But tellingly Kino****a ruled out the new 86 coupe because it was “too small” suggesting the initial plan calls for the bigger, more expensive Lexus models to be given priority.
“It’s one of the trials for which kind of car we can make,” Kino****a said. “Our strong point is we can make special chassis and special engines and special aerodynamics. Our weakest point is how to get the [car to meet the stricter] Euro V emissions, how to get Euro VI, how to get homologations. So we are now learning these things.”
Although the final decision has yet to be made on going ahead with the TMG brand, Kino****a is confident.
Vasselon said a decision could come before the end of the year.
“It’s something to be finalised in the next six to nine months,” Vasselon said.
“Which badge has on the car is one of the decision that needs to be made in the next few months.”
Toyota's history in performance tuned cars isn't strong; only recently it tried to take on local heroes HSV and FPV with a supercharged version of its Aurion large car and Hilux ute - sold under the TRD, or Toyota Racing Development badge - but the project flopped.
Toyota invested heavily in the TMG factory in Colonge during its time in formula one. It is capable of producing and testing every aspect of a racing car and can accommodate up to 1000 staff.
Asked if the idea was to turn the TMG factory into Toyota’s answer to AMG Kino****a was quick to respond.
“Yes,” he said.
The factory is not big enough to produce the cars but would instead become the design and development of the cars.
TMG is also responsible for Toyota’s Le Mans program which uses a super capacitor hybrid system; which provides a larger power boost compared to a conventional hybrid system. Vasselon admitted that TMG has looked at using the super capacitors in the road cars.
“We have been thinking about it, but we have nothing actively in development,” he said.
Kino****a also revealed that TMG is also working on a potential return to the World Rally Championship using a hybrid Yaris and a new 1.6-litre turbocharged petrol engine that can be used for rallying and the World Touring Car Championship.
http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...620-20mqk.html
07-10-12, 11:21 AM
#88
Lexus could add Blind Spot Warning, Around-View Parking Cameras, Front Cornering Cameras, Head's-Up Display, Night Vision, and similar features found in Mercedes-Benz, Infiniti, BMW, Cadillac, etc., but if it's going to keep that 4.6 liter / 380 HP / 367 lb-ft torque engine it's had for years, then I agree with rominl that it ain't really a new car.
I could buy a fully-loaded Infiniti M56 with a 5.6 liter / 420 HP / 417 lb-ft torque engine or Hyundai Equus Ultimate with a 5.0 liter / 429 HP / 376 lb-ft torque engine for less than what the LS460 starts at. Those cars may not be as silent or smooth as the LS460, but they're pretty darned close and a lot less expensive.
Had Lexus announced an LS550 or something along the lines of an AMG-type option, I would have been the first at my dealership with a check. But unless the 2013 LS flies, I'll save my money and get a "lesser" car with just as many bells and whistles as this new LS will likely have.
I could buy a fully-loaded Infiniti M56 with a 5.6 liter / 420 HP / 417 lb-ft torque engine or Hyundai Equus Ultimate with a 5.0 liter / 429 HP / 376 lb-ft torque engine for less than what the LS460 starts at. Those cars may not be as silent or smooth as the LS460, but they're pretty darned close and a lot less expensive.
Had Lexus announced an LS550 or something along the lines of an AMG-type option, I would have been the first at my dealership with a check. But unless the 2013 LS flies, I'll save my money and get a "lesser" car with just as many bells and whistles as this new LS will likely have.
first they will have to market certain cars more than the others. in this, they dropped the gs big time. and then on the other hand, they have this huge spike of hype and sales those 2 years, but then it quickly died off because there were hardly news anymore, so it became hard to continue to drive the sales over years.
if what i said are real problems, question is how to fix? they have to space things out. we already see 2013 gs and 2013 es being all new. if they were to space new cars out, then some cars will have to "suffer" and live longer before next generations, so that means the is and ls. something will just have to give.
it can be very risky, yes. ls has been around since 07, and its sales numbers are so so now. if this is really a facelift, that means another 2 years run at least, making it 2015 before new one, so it's a 8 year cycle, very long. w221 s class was debut in 07 together with ls, and the new s is coming out next year. and with the f01/02 already out for a while, it will shift the market to euro even more.
i guess we will know for sure in 3 weeks. and in that case, who knows, maybe lexus has something that will knock everyone out of the park in 2 years, just like when the ls first came out
07-10-12, 11:23 AM
#89
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I forgot about the M56S. That makes 8.
I responded to what you wrote. I even quoted you. There is nothing about ROI in the post I am referring to. The post directly related to the picture of the TMG LS I posted.
This was your entire post.
You said MB was the only "real player", which IMO is incorrect. So I posted a bunch of other brands that have big performance sedans. Which would be "the market".
You are now trying to turn it into a discussion about what model is a higher priority, but originally you said there was no place for a Performance LS. I think there is.
Are you somehow saying that Mercedes customers are mindless consumers, that just go and buy a S65 for no reason? I have a hard time buying that.
read it again. i never said there is NO demand for big performance sedans. where did i say that? i said the RETURN of having one is much less compared to mid size and small size. READ the last paragraph again, i can help, but not CRITICAL now. they have other more important cars to push out first.
This was your entire post.
You are now trying to turn it into a discussion about what model is a higher priority, but originally you said there was no place for a Performance LS. I think there is.
Are you somehow saying that Mercedes customers are mindless consumers, that just go and buy a S65 for no reason? I have a hard time buying that.
Last edited by NoLFA4U; 07-10-12 at 12:20 PM.
07-10-12, 12:12 PM
#90
I forgot about the M56S. That makes 8.
I responded to what you wrote. I even quoted you. There is nothing about ROI in the post I am referring to. The post directly related to the picture of the TMG LS I posted.
This was your entire post.
You said MB was the only "real player", which IMO is incorrect. So I posted a bunch of other brands that have big performance sedans. Which would be "the market".
You are now trying to turn it into a discussion about what model is a higher priority, but originally you said there was no place for a Performance LS. I think there is.
Are you somehow saying that Mercedes customers are mindless consumers, that just go and buy a S65 for no reason? I have a hard time buying that.
I responded to what you wrote. I even quoted you. There is nothing about ROI in the post I am referring to. The post directly related to the picture of the TMG LS I posted.
This was your entire post.
You said MB was the only "real player", which IMO is incorrect. So I posted a bunch of other brands that have big performance sedans. Which would be "the market".
You are now trying to turn it into a discussion about what model is a higher priority, but originally you said there was no place for a Performance LS. I think there is.
Are you somehow saying that Mercedes customers are mindless consumers, that just go and buy a S65 for no reason? I have a hard time buying that.
and again, i never said "no place for performance ls", i said "lsf has very minimal return". stop tweaking what people said. and i still think that's true, because i am sure there are more people buying m5 and e63 and cls63 than the cars you stated.
you have a hard time believing it that's your problem, but i see plenty of people buying s63 and s65 just because that's the most expensive mb rather than how fast it is, because they never drive fast. they are brand fanboy, they buy it because it's mb, and they come in wanting the most expensive one, period (yup, they are rich).
before you stuff words into other people's mouths again, i did NOT say "ALL" s63 and s65 owners, but i have seen them
in any case, you can believe all you want and what i said. my point is simple. i never said lsf has no position, i said it has very little return. it can be useful, but not before they push out some more important cars first.
on top of that, if they do come out with lsf now? fantastic, i love it. i have been saying this long before you joined. and i will look very closely in getting one too. but doesn't mean from lexus point of view i think that's a smart move
Last edited by rominl; 07-10-12 at 12:16 PM.