Hyundai on not creating a prestige brand: "Only Toyota was successful"
07-07-11, 07:47 PM
#61
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Well you can start with Hyundai's warranty, which applies to original owners only. If you buy a Hyundai used, you automatically lose out on Hyundai's 10 year warranty. Hyundai obviously doesn't advertise this aspect of their warranty. This is compared to most of the competition, where the warranty will still be valid no matter who is the owner of the car, as long as the warranty period has not run out.
Then there is the problem of refinement and ride on new Hyundai/Kia models. Many of their new models have noisy or rough engines, and poor and uncomfortable rides on rough roads. Making a vehicle refined in a variety of driving conditions take time and money, and that is something that Hyundai has cut corners in, so to speak.
Some owners of new Hyundai/Kia models have been complaining as well about thinly padded seats that get uncomfortable after a while.
Last edited by mmarshall; 07-07-11 at 07:51 PM.
07-07-11, 08:00 PM
#62
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I don't want to argue about the same things over and over.
Equus is meeting US sales goals because the goals were VERY low in the first place. Yes the Equus is popular in Korea (and mostly only in Korea), but we're not talking about Korea here.
I stand by my points that the Hyundai brand in North America and in other markets cannot support a car like the Equus. We will see in time who is wrong and who is right.
Equus is meeting US sales goals because the goals were VERY low in the first place. Yes the Equus is popular in Korea (and mostly only in Korea), but we're not talking about Korea here.
I stand by my points that the Hyundai brand in North America and in other markets cannot support a car like the Equus. We will see in time who is wrong and who is right.
INstead of focusing on Korea think about what I am saying when I say the Equus is using America as a test bed to see if there is a demand under the Hyundai brand. Again it is meeting expectations and that is all that matters. So far your opinion is wrong.
07-07-11, 08:02 PM
#63
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What you've stated so far are just opinions of some mysterious people you know. What your 'engineer friend' said is just the same: opinion. If I may, I would like to know what facts he has regarding Hyundai quality issue. That would shed a lot of light on the topic at hand. I think your hatred for Hyundai is showing too much. Give them a chance to do it their own way and if they fall, then oh well. If they succeed then more power to them. Their success is the result of the products they've been putting out. If that's arrogance, then I hope they become more arrogant! You're right, it's too early to tell how they'll fare in the long run, but at the same time, it's too early to call them crap/gimmick/arrogant/or whatever.
Let's see how Hyundai manages when the competition is at full strength and when they have redesigned their models.
I'm no engineer so I don't know the specific details. What my friend told me was specifically in regards to metal quality that Hyundai uses, and the design and thickness of suspension and sub-frame components on Hyundai vehicles. He told me he examined these parts due to engineer curiosity and found them lacking compared some competitors. By the way, he's not really a Toyota fan.
The 10/100 drivetrain waranty stays in force if you re-sell to an immediate family member. Otherwise, you are correct.....it reverts to 5/60 (like the bumper-to-bumoper warranty) on the drivetrain.
Korean-market Hyundais/Kias (and a lot of older U.S.-models) do have a comparably soft, supple ride. Here, though, it is just one more example of the American auto-press more-or-less dictating to manufacturers....they complained about the nice soft comfortable rides, so Hyundai responded with stiffer suspensions/tires. Never mind the fact that much of the buying-public (me included) was perfectly satisfied with the older, softer-riding models and wasn't asking for a stiffer chassis.
Not to sound facetious here, but part of that problem is that many Americans (myself included) are simply too big and weigh too much. That puts a lot of stress on the seat-padding and seat-frame.
Korean-market Hyundais/Kias (and a lot of older U.S.-models) do have a comparably soft, supple ride. Here, though, it is just one more example of the American auto-press more-or-less dictating to manufacturers....they complained about the nice soft comfortable rides, so Hyundai responded with stiffer suspensions/tires. Never mind the fact that much of the buying-public (me included) was perfectly satisfied with the older, softer-riding models and wasn't asking for a stiffer chassis.
Not to sound facetious here, but part of that problem is that many Americans (myself included) are simply too big and weigh too much. That puts a lot of stress on the seat-padding and seat-frame.
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/assurance/...-warranty.aspx
If Hyundai really changed their suspension tuning based on what the media was saying, then that is their own fault. Hyundai should be listening to their customers, not to the media. Again, if this is indeed true, this shows more arrogance on the part of Hyundai IMO.
That may be in fact part of the problem, but the owners complaining apparently have less problems with seats in competitor's vehicles.
07-07-11, 08:14 PM
#64
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Their success is also partly as a result of extraordinary worldwide events, such as the economic downturn, Toyota's lack of focus years ago, and the extraordinary Japanese disaster this year in March that crippled a lot of auto production. The success also comes down due to some luck, as many competitors have old and aging lineups, while Hyundai has just redesigned most of their lineup.
Let's see how Hyundai manages when the competition is at full strength and when they have redesigned their models.
I'm no engineer so I don't know the specific details. What my friend told me was specifically in regards to metal quality that Hyundai uses, and the design and thickness of suspension and sub-frame components on Hyundai vehicles. He told me he examined these parts due to engineer curiosity and found them lacking compared some competitors. By the way, he's not really a Toyota fan.
According to Hyundai's website, on model year 2004 and newer vehicles, the provision of the warranty sticking when re-selling to immediate family members does not apply. It apparently only applies to 1997-2003 model year Hyundais.
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/assurance/...-warranty.aspx
If Hyundai really changed their suspension tuning based on what the media was saying, then that is their own fault. Hyundai should be listening to their customers, not to the media. Again, if this is indeed true, this shows more arrogance on the part of Hyundai IMO.
That may be in fact part of the problem, but the owners complaining apparently have less problems with seats in competitor's vehicles.
Let's see how Hyundai manages when the competition is at full strength and when they have redesigned their models.
I'm no engineer so I don't know the specific details. What my friend told me was specifically in regards to metal quality that Hyundai uses, and the design and thickness of suspension and sub-frame components on Hyundai vehicles. He told me he examined these parts due to engineer curiosity and found them lacking compared some competitors. By the way, he's not really a Toyota fan.
According to Hyundai's website, on model year 2004 and newer vehicles, the provision of the warranty sticking when re-selling to immediate family members does not apply. It apparently only applies to 1997-2003 model year Hyundais.
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/assurance/...-warranty.aspx
If Hyundai really changed their suspension tuning based on what the media was saying, then that is their own fault. Hyundai should be listening to their customers, not to the media. Again, if this is indeed true, this shows more arrogance on the part of Hyundai IMO.
That may be in fact part of the problem, but the owners complaining apparently have less problems with seats in competitor's vehicles.
By the time the competition comes out with new products Hyundai will be in mid cycle refresh and vice versa. That's how most of the market operates. By the way Hyundai has still has new products on the way and refreshings.
Hyundai did listen to the customer. All the reviews you have read about so far have been the R-spec only. The regular 2012 Genesis has received a much more noticable and compliant upgrade. I don't understand all of this hate.
07-07-11, 08:27 PM
#65
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What if a huge disaster hit Korea? Do you think Hyundai would still be competitive and getting big sales increases? Of course not. What if war broke out between North and South Korea? Being sarcastic about the disaster that hit Japan is disrespectful IMO and bad karma.
You just proved my point. Hyundai will be in mid-refresh, but then so will some of the competition. There are peaks and lulls with each automaker as they refresh lineups and as they go through periods of having a dated lineup. Hyundai/Kia hit its peak, but that time is now passing. Soon it will be time for the competition to hit its peak with lots of redesigns and Hyundai will be in a lull.
I've asked this question repeatedly in different threads, and not a single Hyundai supporter has yet to provide an answer. It's a hypothetical question actually that a senior Toyota executive brought up recently, and one which I feel is very relevant. When Hyundai feels they've matched/become like Toyota, what then? Where does Hyundai go from there?
You haven't been reading what I've been saying. The suspension complaints are not just about the R-spec Genesis. Reviews are complaining about the ride quality in the new Elantra as well, and to a lesser extent about the suspension in the new Sonata as well. The Genesis coupe's ride over rough roads has been well criticized too.
You just proved my point. Hyundai will be in mid-refresh, but then so will some of the competition. There are peaks and lulls with each automaker as they refresh lineups and as they go through periods of having a dated lineup. Hyundai/Kia hit its peak, but that time is now passing. Soon it will be time for the competition to hit its peak with lots of redesigns and Hyundai will be in a lull.
I've asked this question repeatedly in different threads, and not a single Hyundai supporter has yet to provide an answer. It's a hypothetical question actually that a senior Toyota executive brought up recently, and one which I feel is very relevant. When Hyundai feels they've matched/become like Toyota, what then? Where does Hyundai go from there?
You haven't been reading what I've been saying. The suspension complaints are not just about the R-spec Genesis. Reviews are complaining about the ride quality in the new Elantra as well, and to a lesser extent about the suspension in the new Sonata as well. The Genesis coupe's ride over rough roads has been well criticized too.
07-07-11, 08:30 PM
#66
It's funny Whenever I look at Hyundai threads there seem to be few people who would kill to argue about how bad Hyundai quality is. Well here's my opinion. My POS is now at 52k miles. It never get washed, hauls over 1500 sometimes 2000 lbs of crap daily, only gets minimal maintenance but this car is all about quality. Never let me down ac still blows ice cold and everything works like it should all while my other vehicles get pampered. Inside the cabin is filthy and makes me wanna puke(now I'm used to it). It's more reliable than all the Benz's and all vehicles I've owned.
Last edited by KA8; 07-07-11 at 08:34 PM.
07-07-11, 08:44 PM
#67
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^^ neighbor has a sedona too that's a few years old. interior surprised me (how nice) and thing has been absolutely rock solid.
07-07-11, 08:58 PM
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What if a huge disaster hit Korea? Do you think Hyundai would still be competitive and getting big sales increases? Of course not. What if war broke out between North and South Korea? Being sarcastic about the disaster that hit Japan is disrespectful IMO and bad karma.
You just proved my point. Hyundai will be in mid-refresh, but then so will some of the competition. There are peaks and lulls with each automaker as they refresh lineups and as they go through periods of having a dated lineup. Hyundai/Kia hit its peak, but that time is now passing. Soon it will be time for the competition to hit its peak with lots of redesigns and Hyundai will be in a lull.
I've asked this question repeatedly in different threads, and not a single Hyundai supporter has yet to provide an answer. It's a hypothetical question actually that a senior Toyota executive brought up recently, and one which I feel is very relevant. When Hyundai feels they've matched/become like Toyota, what then? Where does Hyundai go from there?
You haven't been reading what I've been saying. The suspension complaints are not just about the R-spec Genesis. Reviews are complaining about the suspension in the new Elantra as well, and to a lesser extent about the suspension in the new Sonata as well. The Genesis coupe's ride over rough roads has been well criticized too.
You just proved my point. Hyundai will be in mid-refresh, but then so will some of the competition. There are peaks and lulls with each automaker as they refresh lineups and as they go through periods of having a dated lineup. Hyundai/Kia hit its peak, but that time is now passing. Soon it will be time for the competition to hit its peak with lots of redesigns and Hyundai will be in a lull.
I've asked this question repeatedly in different threads, and not a single Hyundai supporter has yet to provide an answer. It's a hypothetical question actually that a senior Toyota executive brought up recently, and one which I feel is very relevant. When Hyundai feels they've matched/become like Toyota, what then? Where does Hyundai go from there?
You haven't been reading what I've been saying. The suspension complaints are not just about the R-spec Genesis. Reviews are complaining about the suspension in the new Elantra as well, and to a lesser extent about the suspension in the new Sonata as well. The Genesis coupe's ride over rough roads has been well criticized too.
Being sarcastic about the disaster that hit Japan is disrespectful IMO and bad karma.
What on earth? Nevermind...
When Hyundai feels they've matched/become like Toyota, what then? Where does Hyundai go from there?
This is one of the most thoughtless statements I've read. Become like Toyota? Really?
Maybe you haven't noticed but Hyundai isn't letting their guard down and isn't waiting to let their products get stale. The Sonata is already set to receive upgrades for for MY2012 from Bluelink to panoramic sunroof. Even fuel economy gains for the base and turbo. No I'm not a Hyundai sales man just a fan or researching cars. All new Azera, all new Veracruz, all new Santa Fe, all new Veloster, refreshed Equus, refreshed Genesis coupe, new Elantra touring, new Elantra coupe etc. Then it's time for refreshings of their other models. I just said that's how the market works. It's even faster if your products are on shortened product cycles.
With your logic it's a wonder the 3-series just sold nearly 10,000 units last month. Constant updates can take a car a long way.
Other than steering feel there isn't much complaint of suspension. Steering feel yes however. There is talk of road noise due to the low rolling resistant tires but the same goes for Honda's lineup. The Genesis Coupe's suspension is firm.
07-07-11, 09:01 PM
#69
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We'll see how Genesis sales hold in the coming years. Equus sales are almost non-existent, and Hyundai had very low expectations to begin with for Equus US sales. This shows Hyundai knows higher-end products like the Equus can't succeed without a luxury brand in North America. It's just not possible.
The Genesis is not really a luxury product. It could be classed as near-luxury, and price-wise the Genesis with the coupe and sedan currently competes in two totally different segments.
Going forward into the future, I honestly don't think the Hyundai brand can support any additional products that are more upscale than the Genesis.
I've asked this question repeatedly in different threads, and not a single Hyundai supporter has yet to provide an answer. It's a hypothetical question actually that a senior Toyota executive brought up recently, and one which I feel is very relevant. When Hyundai feels they've matched/become like Toyota, what then? Where does Hyundai go from there?
i'm not here to defend hyundai/kia - their spectacular u.s. sales growth speaks for itself. they're not perfect, no brand is. and they may dive bomb in the future, but right now, they're on a roll.
07-07-11, 09:12 PM
#70
Lexus Champion
Most luxury cars sell the most in their first year, when the design is fresh. Usually sales slump after that. Since the Equus is selling so poorly now, it could mean that sales will dive to almost nothing by the end of the car's lifecycle. I am reminded of the VW Phaeton.
I don't see this car lasting, they may import a few more of the next generation since they already make it for the Korean market, but they just don't seem very serious about investing the time and money into a dedicated luxury brand and moving serious volume.
It's not hard to be on a roll when your entire lineup is brand new. 3-5 years down this lineup will be a different story.
07-07-11, 09:18 PM
#71
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Hyundai's Toyota Obsession Fuels Drive
The link is dead but I can post the entire article.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...fA&refer=japan
Seoul-based Hyundai, once an exporter of low-quality vehicles, has become an automaker poised to compete with rivals - - including Japanese role model Toyota Motor Corp.
http://autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...5/1003&refsect
Hyundai might have Stolen Toyota Corporate "Secrets"
LOS ANGELES -- It made perfect sense when Hyundai Motor hired a veteran Toyota engineer named Bruce Shibuya in 2003 to run its quality control unit in Chino, Calif.
After all, Hyundai was on a fanatical quest to raise the quality and reliability of its vehicles. What better place to find a quality expert than Toyota?
Shibuya, an American, had worked at Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc.'s headquarters in Torrance, Calif. But as much as Hyundai benefited from Shibuya's 18 years of Toyota experience, it may have learned more from the secret company documents he brought along with him.
Shibuya, given the title of vice president, Hyundai-Kia North American Quality Center, arrived with a passel of materials detailing Toyota's quality procedures. During his three years at Hyundai's America Technical Center, Shibuya often gave PowerPoint presentations emblazoned with the Toyota logo, according to Hyundai sources and a recent lawsuit.
Shibuya's actions were so galling to Hyundai engineers that one of them anonymously leaked word of it to Toyota this year. In response, the Japanese automaker fired off a cease-and-desist letter to Hyundai. Shibuya, 50, was terminated at Hyundai in August.
Hanna Kim, Shibuya's former executive assistant, contends in the suit, filed Nov. 17, that Shibuya ordered her to make copies of numerous Toyota documents and mail them to Hyundai headquarters in Korea. The lawsuit also alleges sexual harassment by Shibuya against Kim.
Although Hyundai sources were hesitant to give details about the stolen trade secrets, one said, "It was technical reports and their European quality-control model."
It was high-protein stuff, said another Hyundai employee. "This wasn't just paint codes," he said. "This was something that should have been kept confidential."
Hyundai sources say they reported Shibuya's actions to superiors, who did nothing to stop it. Only when Toyota's lawyers pounced in March 2006 with a "nasty-gram," as one source referred to it, did Hyundai take action.
Shibuya did not return phone messages left at his home.
After all, Hyundai was on a fanatical quest to raise the quality and reliability of its vehicles. What better place to find a quality expert than Toyota?
Shibuya, an American, had worked at Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc.'s headquarters in Torrance, Calif. But as much as Hyundai benefited from Shibuya's 18 years of Toyota experience, it may have learned more from the secret company documents he brought along with him.
Shibuya, given the title of vice president, Hyundai-Kia North American Quality Center, arrived with a passel of materials detailing Toyota's quality procedures. During his three years at Hyundai's America Technical Center, Shibuya often gave PowerPoint presentations emblazoned with the Toyota logo, according to Hyundai sources and a recent lawsuit.
Shibuya's actions were so galling to Hyundai engineers that one of them anonymously leaked word of it to Toyota this year. In response, the Japanese automaker fired off a cease-and-desist letter to Hyundai. Shibuya, 50, was terminated at Hyundai in August.
Hanna Kim, Shibuya's former executive assistant, contends in the suit, filed Nov. 17, that Shibuya ordered her to make copies of numerous Toyota documents and mail them to Hyundai headquarters in Korea. The lawsuit also alleges sexual harassment by Shibuya against Kim.
Although Hyundai sources were hesitant to give details about the stolen trade secrets, one said, "It was technical reports and their European quality-control model."
It was high-protein stuff, said another Hyundai employee. "This wasn't just paint codes," he said. "This was something that should have been kept confidential."
Hyundai sources say they reported Shibuya's actions to superiors, who did nothing to stop it. Only when Toyota's lawyers pounced in March 2006 with a "nasty-gram," as one source referred to it, did Hyundai take action.
Shibuya did not return phone messages left at his home.
I tire of this banter from both sides. Agree to disagree and move on. Both sides should agree that
1. Hyundai has made incredible strides
2. Toyota should be given credit for inspiring and showing them how to become this successful.
I've been here so long I remember when we didn't have Hyundai threads and if we did it was to laugh. Today, they offer solid products to talk about.
07-08-11, 09:06 AM
#72
Lexus Fanatic
According to Hyundai's website, on model year 2004 and newer vehicles, the provision of the warranty sticking when re-selling to immediate family members does not apply. It apparently only applies to 1997-2003 model year Hyundais.
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/assurance/...-warranty.aspx
Coverage applies to original owner only, effective with 2004 model year and newer model year vehicles. On 1999-2003 model years, coverage applies to original owner and immediate family members (i.e., wife, husband, daughter, son, stepdaughter, stepson).
I'm glad, then, that Hyundai officially cleared that up on the website (actually, it's 1999-2003), because some Hyundai shops were telling customers conflicting things here.....even some of the customers I've been shopping with.
If Hyundai really changed their suspension tuning based on what the media was saying, then that is their own fault.
07-08-11, 09:23 AM
#73
I dont think Hyundai is the biggest competitor to Toyota at all. Hyundai and especially KIA has moved up considerably and I cant wait for next generation of product to come in next 4-5 years, which I feel will fix some last faults I find (interiors).
However I personally feel VW is by far bigger competitor to Toyota than Hyundai. Hyundai is more competing with GM and Ford than Toyota.
At least here in Europe, Hyundai is competing on basis of price, its most popular products are considerably cheaper than Toyota's and dont compete with same customer. Here they are competing with French and Italian manufacturers for market share.
There is at least 20% price difference between Auris and i30 and Rav4 and ix35.
Who Toyota is competing against the most is VW. In 2-3 years when new Passat and Jetta are firmly in american customer minds, you will see VW numbers get really close to Toyota's.
Both also command premium prices world wide, Toyota based on reliability, VW based on perception of quality. Both have strong home markets where competition can not touch them. Both have great certain export markets.
However I personally feel VW is by far bigger competitor to Toyota than Hyundai. Hyundai is more competing with GM and Ford than Toyota.
At least here in Europe, Hyundai is competing on basis of price, its most popular products are considerably cheaper than Toyota's and dont compete with same customer. Here they are competing with French and Italian manufacturers for market share.
There is at least 20% price difference between Auris and i30 and Rav4 and ix35.
Who Toyota is competing against the most is VW. In 2-3 years when new Passat and Jetta are firmly in american customer minds, you will see VW numbers get really close to Toyota's.
Both also command premium prices world wide, Toyota based on reliability, VW based on perception of quality. Both have strong home markets where competition can not touch them. Both have great certain export markets.
07-08-11, 11:33 AM
#74
Lexus Champion
Who Toyota is competing against the most is VW. In 2-3 years when new Passat and Jetta are firmly in american customer minds, you will see VW numbers get really close to Toyota's.
Both also command premium prices world wide, Toyota based on reliability, VW based on perception of quality. Both have strong home markets where competition can not touch them. Both have great certain export markets.