mmarshall

The UAW was the cancer of the American auto industry.


Times change.

And the excessive level of government regulations on new cars doesn't help, either. That adds a huge amount to design and production costs.

RXGS

iTrader: (2)

The only GM product i would drive would be an avalanche, but that it is it. If i were to buy American it would be a ford/lincoln. Just recently i drove the lincoln equivalent to the taurus and taurus x? (previous freestyle?) and i was impressed not only by the way they drove, but the way they were made to. Also the sync system is actually quite easy to use, major props to ford

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

it's still a cancer, but it's dying

sadly, the change we got with the new gm and chrysler stiffed taxpayers for over 50 billion.

on that i agree 100%

mmarshall

Cadillac does a version of the Avalanche in the Escalade line-up (EXT). It costs more than the Avalanche, but, of course, has nicer trim and more equipment.

http://www.cadillac.com/escaladeExt/2011/




The flagship-sedan MKS is the Taurus-based Lincoln you are refering to. Lincoln, to date, has not sold a version of the Freestyle wagon (which was renamed the Taurus X)........that vehicle was sold, in FWD and AWD versions, only under the Ford nameplate.

I was sorry to see the Freestyle/Taurus X go. It was a sensible, well-designed vehicle.....somewhat akin to a larger, roomier Subaru Outback.

mmarshall

I haven't seen the details of every new UAW plant-contract, but, in general, their wages are down to (roughly) the levels that are paid in a number of the non-UAW auto plants down south (BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Nissan, etc....)



Much of the arguments for the deal, though, were that, despite taxpayer money, things would be better in the long run. And the opinion of a number of posters here (they know who they are) is that getting rid of 4 divisions at GM was a good buisness decision, and that it will have the effect of reversing money-loss. I partially, but don't entirely agree.



Yes, part of it is what the government demands on new cars, and part, of course, is what consumers want.

IS-SV

"Remember" that Saturn and Pontiac lost tens of billions of dollars. These were supposed to be responsible, sustainable businesses, not sinkholes for shareholders and taxpayers.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

was? "IS", until they are gone. there is no point of union, except for some corrupted reasons behind. let the industry dictates what's right and what's wrong. if you are capable, you get paid well.

caddyowner

When I was shopping for a winter DD last summer, it came down to a Taurus X or Outback. The Taurus X had more interior room and power than a 4 cylinder Outback. However, accessibility for my wife was somewhat worse with the X due to the added seat height and short distance between the passenger seat and front of the door frame. The X also had an unneeded (for us) 3rd row seat and took up a lot more room in my garage. Given the mediocre performance of the AWD system of my previous Lincoln MKZ, I was more interested in trying out the Subaru AWD system. The deal was sealed with I found a private party Outback in good condition for $3K under the KBB private party price.

mmarshall

I agree. IMO, It's hard to beat an Outback or Forester for everyday all-purpose driving, especially in bad weather. I drive an Outback myself.

RXGS

iTrader: (2)

I just found out what it was called, a lincoln mkt. And i have driven the escalade equivalent of the avalanche, but its just a bit much for me "bling" wise. It seems like the kind of truck for someone who just wants to show off, but thats just my personal opinion. I guess you could say that about a lot of cars though

RA40

iTrader: (6)

What has me curious about these discussions is how much of that $ is remaining stateside? The factory workers sure, corporate and off shore shareholders/investors then leading into OEM parts suppliers/contractors. These "American" vs. "Foreign" builds aren't like the 30's-60's cars. In the end it becomes an "assembled in" discussion between domestic or foreign badges.

mmarshall

Well, if you purchase a German, Japanese, or Korean-badged vehicle built in a plant on American soil, you can be sure of this much:

First, in most cases, the money that the plant-workers and plant-managers make will stay in America, unless they actually take it and spend it overseas on a vacation or have overseas financial obligations like taxes, alimony, child-support, etc....... But, even then, a good deal of it still remains in America.

Second, the money at the dealership level, in most cases, will also stay in America because the dealership has to use its income for operating expenses, running the buisness, and paying its own employees.

Now, the money that flows from the dealership to the overseas-manufacturer (e.g......when the dealer orders new vehicles from the manufacturer and they are delivered)....that's a different matter. Even if those vehicles are actually built in America, that money will probably not stay in America, but, of course, be transfered overseas into that corporation's country and accounting system and/or to the overseas-shipping companies that actually carry the vehicles.

mmarshall

The MKT, though was not done on the Taurus/Freestyle platform, but that of the Ford Flex SUV. Like with the MKS (which was done on the Taurus/Taurus X platform you mentioned), the MKT deviated quite a bit in styling and interior from the Ford counterpart.


The classic stereotype Escalade owners are pimps, rap singers, and NBA/NFL guys, but, of course, the Escalade's appeal also goes well-beyond those groups. That old stereotype, while not completely gone, is rapidly fading. Escalades, especially white and black ones, are fairly common in the D.C. area where I live, but, of course, this is a very affluent area with a lot of money and jobs, so a number of people can afford them. But, I agree...it's more than I would spend on a new car.

Sulu

From the Detroit 3, I think that only the trucks and minivans can be considered to be "All American". But even then, in component content and location of assembly, they may be considered to be less American than the Toyota Camry. And the Chrysler minivans are now assembled in Canada.

Many of the "domestic" cars may be assembled in America but much of their development engineering (especially of the underlying platforms) was done in Asia or Europe.

GM now relies upon GM Korea (the former Daewoo) to develop its small cars (like the Cruze). (The Volt is based on the Cruze.) GM relies upon GM Europe for their mid-size car platforms (the Epsilon platform was developed by Opel in Germany). GM's full-size RWD platform (for the Camaro and new Chevrolet police cruiser) come from Holden in Australia. GM's Theta platform (for the mid-size crossover Chevy Equinox and GMC Terrain) was adapted from the Epsilon platform as was the Lambda platform (for the full-size crossover Chevy Traverse, Buick Enclave and GMC Acadia). The Buick Regal is a re-badged Opel Insignia. The Buick LaCrosse had much design input from the Chinese.

Ford's car platforms are also international. The new sub-compact Fiesta and compact Focus are European designs. The mid-size Fusion and MKZ are built on an adapted Mazda6 platform, as are the Edge and MKX. The Taurus and MKS are on adapted Volvo platforms, as are the Flex, MKT and Explorer. The next Fusion is supposed to be based on the European Ford Mondeo. The next Escape is likely based upon an European design also. Safety innovations seem to have come from Volvo. Off-road innovations came from Land Rover. (Ford took a lot from their former European Premium Automotive Group brands but gave them little in return.)

Chrysler's large cars (300, Charger and Challenger) use many Mercedes-Benz components. Chrysler's small cars (Caliber, Sebring/200, Avenger, Journey) use an adapted Mitsubishi platform.

Has car design and engineering expertise become centred in Western Europe (Germany) and East Asia (Korea, Japan and increasingly China) now?

<VENOM>

NY especially where I come from has tons of American vehicles, every other driveway has a Tahoe, Suburban, Escalade, but tons of foreign cars, Japanese and German with Koreans making there way in, my biggest grip with the cars here in GA are the parking lots, I know cars drip oil but here it's pouring out of the cars, scary cause that is soaking into the ground and going into the water.

The only reason I think the quality of crap is better in NY then GA is the yearly state inspections get the unsafe cars off the road.