dunnojack

i think infiniti M sales suck because most americans think it's ugly.

it looks like a cockroach, especially in black, with 18" wheels.



now, the question is, can nissan lower the price ?? How much does the fuga sell for in Japan?

Sens4Miles

Sorry, but I disagree that a car built on past reputation and "status" should cost more than a car that is simply better built - and it is. In fact I'll go as far as to say that every Infiniti is superior to Mercedes, BMW, and the ridiculously overpriced Audis because they are simply the better built vehicles - they don't break (well compared to the unreliable German makes).

I don't buy into the whole "Japanese luxury brands should cost less than German luxury brands" theory based purely on status and past glory. I'm glad both Lexus and Infiniti have finally raised their prices to almost equal the overpriced German makes - they're better cars - they should cost more IMO.

*Batman*

I agree that Infiniti has overpriced the M.

Infiniti fanboys can claim the brand is equal of the competition, but I remember that only 8 years ago they were selling rebadged Maximas. If I were to mention that I was buying an Infiniti to one of my London banker friends, they would say "I'm sorry, what's that?"

I don't think that a company that only found its groove in the luxury car industry 6-7 years ago can claim to be a brand equal in strength to Mercedes, a company that has been renowned for luxury cars since 1901!

As an example, I recently saw a real estate developers model for a new luxury retail park. Like all models they had model cars driving in and out of the parking lot. The model included BMWs, Mercedes, Aston Martin, Porsche, Range Rover and Ferrari but no Japanese car.

I am not knocking Japanese cars, but I am saying that the reputations of BMW and Mercedes have been built over a century. Infiniti has less than one decade of building cars that compete with these brands. Of the Asian brands, only Lexus can claim be a serious competitor given its market share leadership and that the LS has a legendary reputation having taken sales from top BMW and Mercedes models for over 20 years.

I for one would not buy an Infiniti (or a Lexus, Audi, or Jaguar) at the same price as a BMW. The products are comparable, but they are not equal.

*Batman*

Don't agree. For example:
1) The best suspension technologies are active suspension systems with active stabilizers. Infiniti does not offer this technology on any of their cars. Which means they can't match a BMW in either sportiness or comfort. What Infiniti is doing is selling the suspension tech of a 30k car in a 70k car!
2) The trim combinations are appalling. The ability to choose between different woods, different leathers, and different paints is highly limited on an Infiniti. You get the same level of customization you would buying a Nissan off the lot. Moreover you can't get premium soft touch materials or premium headliner in a sports model - that's ridiculous when other luxury car companies make these premium finishes standard on all trims!

And while you may be willing to pay more for an Infiniti than a BMW, the market doesn't think so. Why else would BMW outsell Infiniti even with higher prices!

Och

iTrader: (3)

I disagree with that. Infiniti's quality is only beginning to become up to par. Most of their products in the past and up until were recent were built with low quality assembly, cheap materials, awful interiors, and pathetic paint jobs. They didn't age well, didn't last, and didn't hold their value. My wife had two Infinitis in the past (Q45 and J30), my parents owned a Qx4 and Q45 (still keeping the Q45 in FL to use when they go there), and they all say never again. Before we got my wifes 335, I tried to change her opinion and convince her to check out a G37, but she didn't even wanna hear it. Bad reputation is not something that's easily forgotten. Infiniti is simply not at the same level as Lexus and the Germans, and by pricing themselves at this level they are only going to get laughed at.

*Batman*

As another example of Infiniti quality, I rented 3 Infiniti M35s from Hertz over the past 8 weeks. In every single one the wood veneer was peeling of the door panels.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Infiniti was actually one of the first with Active Suspension tech? The first gen Q45t featured active suspension and 4 wheel steering options.

I'm not sure if this technology is being offered in any of their current models.

*Batman*

Yes but it hasn't been on a single Infiniti since the Q45.

The current M56 is striking in that it is one of only two V8 engined mid-size luxury sedans to not offer active suspension. BMW 5 has it. Jaguar XF has it. Mercedes E has it (with air also). Lexus GS has it. Cadillac STS has it. Porsche Panamera has it.

The only other car in this segment that doesn't have active suspension is the Audi A6 (long wheelbase VW Passat). So i guess Audi and Infiniti have this in common - both share platform with cheaper models, both lack advanced suspension and handling as a result.

Och

iTrader: (3)

But on the contrary, the M is the only mid-size sedan that offers 4 wheel steering.

Sens4Miles

Didn't last? are you sure about that? have you checked the long term reliability studies on Infinitis? They're always high on the list. The Germans are always low on the list. I'll agree about their interiors in the past - they did use cheaper materials compared to some of the competition. But MBs from the 90s haven't exactly aged well either. Have you looked around at some pre-owned MB interiors? they look like crap. The leather is cracked and looks cheap. Nothing compares to Lexus in this regard, IMO. Lexus has always produced quality cars inside and out, which I guess is one of the main reasons we bought them. I don't feel MB, BMW, or Audi are anywhere near the same quality - including materials used, interior quality, reliability, and overall build quality.

*Batman*

I think suspension is more important than steering in a luxury car. People forgive lack of steering feel (that's how Lexus sells so many cars), but people are less likely to forgive a harsh or overly soft ride.

Regarding Infiniti being only one to have active steering - not true. The BMW 5 series offers Integrated Active Steering. And having driven both I can tell you the BMW one works much better.

From BMWUSA.com

With Integral Active Steering, at speeds up to 30 mph, a small turn of the steering wheel yields a greater turn of the front wheels for more direct response. It also steers the rear wheels up to 2.5 degrees in the opposite direction, giving the effect of a shortend wheelbase for enhanced maneuverability. When changing lanes at speeds over 50 mph, both front and rear wheels turn in the same direction, giving the feel of an extended wheelbase. While you experience greater responsiveness and directional stability, your passengers enjoy greater ride comfort from reduced body roll.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, that is pretty much what I meant about Infinitis not lasting. Engine mechanical were fine, but all the interior materials easily faded, scratched and cracked. Paint jobs faded and developed unsightly swirls after a couple of car washes. It is no secret that Nissan was in financial trouble for a long time, and applied heavy cost cutting to everything, and it showed.

Like I said, todays Infiniti's quality is substantially higher than what it used to be, it is on par and in some ways better than their competitors. But if they want to recover from their bad reputation of the past and regain customers trust, they need to review their pricing strategy amongst other things.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Technically active steering and 4 wheel steering are not the same thing. I didn't know BMW's active steering system included 4 wheel steerings.

*Batman*

Yes the BMW steering is both variable ratio steering and 4 wheel steering, and both features are active as in they are actively modulated based on the speed of the vehicle.

dunnojack

infiniti materials have always been pretty damn cheap in terms of durability and feel.

But nissan engines are pretty much bulletproof.

and cracked leather depends on how well the owner maintained it. Even bentley leather will crack if neglected.