Man spends nearly $200,000 to win right to park truck in his own driveway
07-30-10, 07:14 AM
#16
Boardroom Thug
Yes, but . . .
HOA's are often run by the developer, and while they may not technically have a vote in proceedings after all units have been sold, they often have a great deal to do with the contracts set up for maintenance, landscaping, pool service, etc. Most of these pay kickbacks to the developer for pasting them into this sweet deal. Even worse are the HOA's run by a bunch of amateurs, who have no experience at all in property management, finance, or law. Usually, the HOA then goes back to the developer for "help" in managing the organization.
When I had my townhome, my HOA went from one of these extremes to the other. They built two of the most expensive pools in the area - both constructed by the same high-end contractor, and both of which were structurally unsound. We spent years trying to plug the leaks from cracks caused by heaving soil and extremely poor engineering. We paid for garbage pickup - twice. Once to the city, who claimed not to be able to get their trucks into our driveways (I often turned my Suburban around in mine), so we had to pay a private contractor with an identical truck to pick up the trash - while paying the city a similar amount just to put it in the landfill.
Every year my HOA assessment went up until it approached my mortgage payment, and what was I getting? Landscape maintenance, exterior paint every six years and a new roof every ten - and of course the trash service and city water and sewer. The largest single item was pool maintenance, which was a ripoff to start with, and compounded by the poor construction of the pools.
I sold out at a loss, but I think I won.
HOA's are often run by the developer, and while they may not technically have a vote in proceedings after all units have been sold, they often have a great deal to do with the contracts set up for maintenance, landscaping, pool service, etc. Most of these pay kickbacks to the developer for pasting them into this sweet deal. Even worse are the HOA's run by a bunch of amateurs, who have no experience at all in property management, finance, or law. Usually, the HOA then goes back to the developer for "help" in managing the organization.
When I had my townhome, my HOA went from one of these extremes to the other. They built two of the most expensive pools in the area - both constructed by the same high-end contractor, and both of which were structurally unsound. We spent years trying to plug the leaks from cracks caused by heaving soil and extremely poor engineering. We paid for garbage pickup - twice. Once to the city, who claimed not to be able to get their trucks into our driveways (I often turned my Suburban around in mine), so we had to pay a private contractor with an identical truck to pick up the trash - while paying the city a similar amount just to put it in the landfill.
Every year my HOA assessment went up until it approached my mortgage payment, and what was I getting? Landscape maintenance, exterior paint every six years and a new roof every ten - and of course the trash service and city water and sewer. The largest single item was pool maintenance, which was a ripoff to start with, and compounded by the poor construction of the pools.
I sold out at a loss, but I think I won.
07-30-10, 08:29 AM
#17
We own a townhome it's been almost a year. I'm one of the directors of our small 8 unit townhome community. We have one unit that has an f150 that doesn't fit in his garage so he uses that excuse to park it in front of his garage. The problem is that it affects one of the other neighbors as she has to go back and forth like 5 times to get out of her garage and that truck rarely moves so most times it's just parked there so it's kindof getting annoying. They don't complain so we let it be. I can understand both sides though.
Some people only like condo/th's but I don't like it. I'm the type that wants a house with some land to work on cars and do other things and I agree HOA sucks.
Some people only like condo/th's but I don't like it. I'm the type that wants a house with some land to work on cars and do other things and I agree HOA sucks.
07-30-10, 08:32 AM
#18
Pole Position
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This is why, no matter what my financial situation may be or become, I will never buy into a condo or gated community. Too many HOA's implement some very ridiculous rules that have no basis in common sense. Sure, lot's of the regulations are sound, and there for good reason, but too often they're also saturated with stuff just to insure one persons image of the community.
But at least you know this (or should) when buying into a community that has an HOA.
What really bugs me more, is townships that try to run the community like an HOA. My mother-in-law lives in one such area. Since it's generally an upper-middle-class community (though there are less than privileged areas - not poor, just not wealthy), the townships board of directors tries to dictate what you can/can't do with an iron fist. And since 50% or more of the townships residents have a household income in the higher tax brackets, they allow it to be run like a gated community.
Some rules (and remember, this is a township, not an HOA community):
Recreational vehicles can not be stored in a potentially visible location. This includes boats, campers, motorhomes, etc. Now this may not sound like a big deal, but even a small ski boat, covered, and tucked out of site in the back yard is prohibited. Also, some residents have been cited for custom vans, which by the state, are classified as a passenger vehicle, NOT an RV. So why not just build a privacy fence...
Privacy fences are strictly prohibited by the township. You can apply for a permit, but you won't get one. The township claims this is a safety issue, as police can't track potential suspects visually through a privacy fence. But it's believed the real reason is that someone on the board/council thinks they're eyesores.
No freestanding structure may stand taller than the average roofline of the surrounding neighborhood. This includes flagpoles, antennas, satellite dishes, and believe it or not, treehouses. This was originally put in place because one of the richer sections of the township didn't want to be able to see cell towers on the next hillside (yet *****ed and moaned when they got no reception). But it really PO'ed two groups of people. The first was a group of veterans who were told their 20-25' flagpoles had to come down (they are still fighting it, and have refused to pay the fines for the last 15 years or so). The other group was the local HAM radio operators, many who have antennas ranging from 20-50'. They actually fought and won in court, as the FCC dictates HAM radio and the township can't override the FCC.
And there are many, many other nitpicky rules and regs set forth by the township (these are just the ones I hear about the most because they affect my father-in-law)
So what's the point of all of this? Well, HOA's are slowly starting to influence how cities and townships are starting to write codes for their communities. Which IMHO is a very bad thing. Especially for those of us who did not buy into a "gated community" and don't want to be told where we can park, what we can build, what we can plant, or anything else regarding property that we own. If you want to pass an ordinance that is safety oriented, and is truly sound and based on common sense, that's fine. But don't lose sight of the communities right to freedom and individuality.
Sorry, my rant is over...
But at least you know this (or should) when buying into a community that has an HOA.
What really bugs me more, is townships that try to run the community like an HOA. My mother-in-law lives in one such area. Since it's generally an upper-middle-class community (though there are less than privileged areas - not poor, just not wealthy), the townships board of directors tries to dictate what you can/can't do with an iron fist. And since 50% or more of the townships residents have a household income in the higher tax brackets, they allow it to be run like a gated community.
Some rules (and remember, this is a township, not an HOA community):
Recreational vehicles can not be stored in a potentially visible location. This includes boats, campers, motorhomes, etc. Now this may not sound like a big deal, but even a small ski boat, covered, and tucked out of site in the back yard is prohibited. Also, some residents have been cited for custom vans, which by the state, are classified as a passenger vehicle, NOT an RV. So why not just build a privacy fence...
Privacy fences are strictly prohibited by the township. You can apply for a permit, but you won't get one. The township claims this is a safety issue, as police can't track potential suspects visually through a privacy fence. But it's believed the real reason is that someone on the board/council thinks they're eyesores.
No freestanding structure may stand taller than the average roofline of the surrounding neighborhood. This includes flagpoles, antennas, satellite dishes, and believe it or not, treehouses. This was originally put in place because one of the richer sections of the township didn't want to be able to see cell towers on the next hillside (yet *****ed and moaned when they got no reception). But it really PO'ed two groups of people. The first was a group of veterans who were told their 20-25' flagpoles had to come down (they are still fighting it, and have refused to pay the fines for the last 15 years or so). The other group was the local HAM radio operators, many who have antennas ranging from 20-50'. They actually fought and won in court, as the FCC dictates HAM radio and the township can't override the FCC.
And there are many, many other nitpicky rules and regs set forth by the township (these are just the ones I hear about the most because they affect my father-in-law)
So what's the point of all of this? Well, HOA's are slowly starting to influence how cities and townships are starting to write codes for their communities. Which IMHO is a very bad thing. Especially for those of us who did not buy into a "gated community" and don't want to be told where we can park, what we can build, what we can plant, or anything else regarding property that we own. If you want to pass an ordinance that is safety oriented, and is truly sound and based on common sense, that's fine. But don't lose sight of the communities right to freedom and individuality.
Sorry, my rant is over...
07-30-10, 09:00 AM
#19
Out of Warranty
That's basically what happened in Houston - townhomes (separate entrances and garages) and condos (common entrance and garage) are largely found now only in expensive neighborhoods where a developer can make a killing by jamming a dozen residences on two lots. Lower end townhomes were competing directly with tract housing on price, and with unfavorable loan rates for multi-family dwellings, they all but disappeared.
Add to that the apartment owners who wanted to convert their property to condos. I had a nice one-bedroom in a tony location that went condo. The asking price was easily twice the comp rate in the neighborhood, and the structural problems (it was a firetrap and no two walls were parallel) that could be ignored on a short term lease, became a deal-breaker on a purchase. I moved out to a townhouse for a few dollars more with twice the square footage and a 2-car garage (instead of a single carport 100 yards away). Thirty years later, the place is still there - it never went condo because there were too many nice condos in the area for very little more money. They never sold, but I understand the fire department still makes regular calls.
A few years later, the "patio home", essentially a zero lot line home, made its appearance. While it did offer independent ownership with a minimal lawn to maintain - only about a 25foot setback from the street and no restrictions on the width of the dwelling, up to the full width of the property, it had a lot of the same drawbacks as the townhome, except you furnished your own maintenance. Naturally, most of these slotted in below the cost of a conventional home and with minimal investment required, homeowners let them go to seed.
This situation that worked around conventional HOA's, seems to have brought back the concept of "neighborhood associations" - and for the most part, these have worked well. These are largely civic clubs that work for community improvements. We have had deed restrictions in this neighborhood for over 80 years, and they work pretty well, although they do need updating. You can't build a "mother-in-law" cottage in your backyard (a second dwelling on the property), or build a living space above a detached garage, but some people get away with it, and so long as the property looks good, few complain.
While they don't charge much (my current NA costs me $55/year, and that's voluntary), they don't have a lot of legal authority. You may let your grass grow too long with nothing more punishing than the scowls of your neighbors, but if it gets knee deep, the NA has the city come around and cut it for you - usually a miserable chop job for which they bill you $300. Cars parked on your lawn will eventually be towed, and trash picked up for similar exorbitant fees. Don't pay? Your home could be up for sale by the city for taxes. It's not legal power, but political connections - and it works.
Add to that the apartment owners who wanted to convert their property to condos. I had a nice one-bedroom in a tony location that went condo. The asking price was easily twice the comp rate in the neighborhood, and the structural problems (it was a firetrap and no two walls were parallel) that could be ignored on a short term lease, became a deal-breaker on a purchase. I moved out to a townhouse for a few dollars more with twice the square footage and a 2-car garage (instead of a single carport 100 yards away). Thirty years later, the place is still there - it never went condo because there were too many nice condos in the area for very little more money. They never sold, but I understand the fire department still makes regular calls.
A few years later, the "patio home", essentially a zero lot line home, made its appearance. While it did offer independent ownership with a minimal lawn to maintain - only about a 25foot setback from the street and no restrictions on the width of the dwelling, up to the full width of the property, it had a lot of the same drawbacks as the townhome, except you furnished your own maintenance. Naturally, most of these slotted in below the cost of a conventional home and with minimal investment required, homeowners let them go to seed.
This situation that worked around conventional HOA's, seems to have brought back the concept of "neighborhood associations" - and for the most part, these have worked well. These are largely civic clubs that work for community improvements. We have had deed restrictions in this neighborhood for over 80 years, and they work pretty well, although they do need updating. You can't build a "mother-in-law" cottage in your backyard (a second dwelling on the property), or build a living space above a detached garage, but some people get away with it, and so long as the property looks good, few complain.
While they don't charge much (my current NA costs me $55/year, and that's voluntary), they don't have a lot of legal authority. You may let your grass grow too long with nothing more punishing than the scowls of your neighbors, but if it gets knee deep, the NA has the city come around and cut it for you - usually a miserable chop job for which they bill you $300. Cars parked on your lawn will eventually be towed, and trash picked up for similar exorbitant fees. Don't pay? Your home could be up for sale by the city for taxes. It's not legal power, but political connections - and it works.
07-30-10, 09:09 AM
#20
Lexus Champion
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I just bought a new single family home in Orange County, CA. It is a gated company with HOA. But its a brand new property. I hope the HOA is not so bad!
07-30-10, 09:15 AM
#21
Boardroom Thug
Bob the neighborhood associations do work for the most part because the reality is most people will work together and share the common goal of making their area look nice. And that tiny bit of money often goes towards flowers and lighting for the entry area to the neighborhood.
All the years without HOA’s some how neighborhoods didn’t fall apart including the 1940’s baby boomer area I grew up in. Yeah from time to time you will have someone doing something you don’t like, but you already have 1231231231231 city or townships ordinances stopping most of it.
Am I willing to give up control over my own land and property so I don’t have to worry about what color xmas lights someone puts up or paints their house a color I don’t like, no.
All the years without HOA’s some how neighborhoods didn’t fall apart including the 1940’s baby boomer area I grew up in. Yeah from time to time you will have someone doing something you don’t like, but you already have 1231231231231 city or townships ordinances stopping most of it.
Am I willing to give up control over my own land and property so I don’t have to worry about what color xmas lights someone puts up or paints their house a color I don’t like, no.
07-30-10, 09:21 AM
#22
Pole Position
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At least you know going in, that there is an HOA. Most are not really that bad, but the ordinances are often written in a vague enough manner that they can dictate almost anything if they really wanted. At least that's been my experience with HOA's.
07-30-10, 10:24 AM
#23
Yeah, it depends on the "snobby" neighborhood where a FOR SALE has to be "this high" off the ground
No offense, but if the boards are run by old and picky retirees, you're in for a treat
It can be good (keep the neighborhood safe, all in a single file) and can be bad (nit picky, more ****, stricter than a bootcamp) like all the stories mentioned above
No offense, but if the boards are run by old and picky retirees, you're in for a treat
It can be good (keep the neighborhood safe, all in a single file) and can be bad (nit picky, more ****, stricter than a bootcamp) like all the stories mentioned above
07-30-10, 12:08 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
07-30-10, 12:22 PM
#27
My wife and I lived in a condo in Northern Virginia for several years...and it was exactly has many have described.
The majority of the board (and the most vocal of the residents) were older set-in-their-was retirees who literally had nothing better to do.
Why didn't younger folks run for the board? Because the board meetings started at like 5 pm and would run until 11pm or later sometimes, because all the mean old residents would just ramble on and on.
Examples...
The complex was 2 26-story towers. The retirees would go up to the penthouse area in each building and, with a pair of binoculars, look down the balconies of the other tower, looking for "unapproved" items on the balcony (we couldn't have bicycles out there, we couldn't have "non-patio" furniture out there, we couldn't use the patio as "storage".
Seriously, there's NOTHING better to do with your time than complain about what someone on the TWENTIETH floor has on their balcony?
Another example...
There was a garage door system that was on it's last leg...constantly breaking down, and having to be repaired.
The board decided to replace the system. They ordered a new computerized system and enough remotes for everyone. When it was announced that they were going to be issuing new remotes, people went NUTS!
"The old system works"..."I like the remote I have".
They literally shelved the whole project for like a year. Mind you, this wasn't about money...the system...and remotes...were bought and paid for, sitting in a box.
It took the system breaking down 3 more times (with some folks asking the board "When are you going to do something about this!?!?") before they finally were able to come up with an implimentation plan that people would agree with.
They even spent a couple of months arguing back and forth about how many remotes each unit would receive (one per parking space? One per unit? One per adult in household? As many as the unit-owner wants (and the condo association's expense)?)
It was ugly.
We bought a house...no HOA. I'll paint my house pink if I want to. No one can stop me.
The majority of the board (and the most vocal of the residents) were older set-in-their-was retirees who literally had nothing better to do.
Why didn't younger folks run for the board? Because the board meetings started at like 5 pm and would run until 11pm or later sometimes, because all the mean old residents would just ramble on and on.
Examples...
The complex was 2 26-story towers. The retirees would go up to the penthouse area in each building and, with a pair of binoculars, look down the balconies of the other tower, looking for "unapproved" items on the balcony (we couldn't have bicycles out there, we couldn't have "non-patio" furniture out there, we couldn't use the patio as "storage".
Seriously, there's NOTHING better to do with your time than complain about what someone on the TWENTIETH floor has on their balcony?
Another example...
There was a garage door system that was on it's last leg...constantly breaking down, and having to be repaired.
The board decided to replace the system. They ordered a new computerized system and enough remotes for everyone. When it was announced that they were going to be issuing new remotes, people went NUTS!
"The old system works"..."I like the remote I have".
They literally shelved the whole project for like a year. Mind you, this wasn't about money...the system...and remotes...were bought and paid for, sitting in a box.
It took the system breaking down 3 more times (with some folks asking the board "When are you going to do something about this!?!?") before they finally were able to come up with an implimentation plan that people would agree with.
They even spent a couple of months arguing back and forth about how many remotes each unit would receive (one per parking space? One per unit? One per adult in household? As many as the unit-owner wants (and the condo association's expense)?)
It was ugly.
We bought a house...no HOA. I'll paint my house pink if I want to. No one can stop me.
07-30-10, 02:09 PM
#28
Lexus Fanatic
Yup.... the HOA in my neighborhood are strict as well. In this case they were unreasonable but usually they are there to make sure you dont have people doing ghetto stuff on their property like parking cars on the lawn, leaving trash can on the street for a week, or having insane weeds. All in all they are there to keep the neighborhood looking great
07-30-10, 04:18 PM
#30
Though our city has no official HOA, there is a long list of areas for compliance through "code enforcement". Combined with city sympathizers it can be a PITA.
I've have door hang tags for the following over the years:
The raw naturally weathered cedar side gate. I liked the natural weathering but I had to paint it.
Lawn being a bit long after skipping one week.
Paint on one of the eves flaking. Mind you this was not the forward portion of the house but the side not readily visible from the street either.
Their city managed tree that ruined my yard but they still force me to landscape around the tree. Try that with roots preventing doing anything then if I damage/kill the tree, I'm liable for fines. The landscaper killed the tree in the process so he was the one the city went after.
Sat dish cannot be visible from the front of the house. They have become more lax so many have mini dishes mounted on their chimney. The original code was that it was not supposed to be visible.
Recreational vehicles, boats, non-op vehicles not on street on driveway. They do check if one files for a city street parking permit. Each year they come and look in may garage to verify the Celica is registered to me and is non-op.
They were pretty easy on color choices when the house was stucco'd and painted. But it had to be signed off.
Joys. That said, the city overall is uniform and presents a nice overall setting. Unlike wife's folks in Anaheim who have a neighbor with a pastel pink painted house.
I've have door hang tags for the following over the years:
The raw naturally weathered cedar side gate. I liked the natural weathering but I had to paint it.
Lawn being a bit long after skipping one week.
Paint on one of the eves flaking. Mind you this was not the forward portion of the house but the side not readily visible from the street either.
Their city managed tree that ruined my yard but they still force me to landscape around the tree. Try that with roots preventing doing anything then if I damage/kill the tree, I'm liable for fines. The landscaper killed the tree in the process so he was the one the city went after.
Sat dish cannot be visible from the front of the house. They have become more lax so many have mini dishes mounted on their chimney. The original code was that it was not supposed to be visible.
Recreational vehicles, boats, non-op vehicles not on street on driveway. They do check if one files for a city street parking permit. Each year they come and look in may garage to verify the Celica is registered to me and is non-op.
They were pretty easy on color choices when the house was stucco'd and painted. But it had to be signed off.
Joys. That said, the city overall is uniform and presents a nice overall setting. Unlike wife's folks in Anaheim who have a neighbor with a pastel pink painted house.