Toyota recalls and related issues: BusinessWeek-Media owes Toyota an apology
11-03-09, 05:14 AM
#1
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Toyota recalls and related issues: BusinessWeek-Media owes Toyota an apology
[EDIT (bitkahuna): please see FAQ for info on models affected, not affected, etc. thank you]
Before you guys say this is old news, it is not. There are claims that the misplace floor mats may not be the only problem with Toyota and Lexus when it comes to Sudden Acceleration. The report go on to say that some owners have claim when it happened to them, they look down at the accelarator and it was not stuck to the floor mat. Now all eyes are on the drive by wire ECU, since Toyota started using DBW in 2002, Sudden Acceleration incidents have since double or triple.
Experts recommands when Sudden Acceleration or a runaway situation happens, try to shift the car in neutral and do not shut off the car. Also, do not hit the brakes, it will cause it to over heat and render it useless. Although it did mention that there are a few German cars that when your tap the brakes, it will cut off the throttle, anyone know which German cars does that?
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Runawa...ory?id=8980479
Before you guys say this is old news, it is not. There are claims that the misplace floor mats may not be the only problem with Toyota and Lexus when it comes to Sudden Acceleration. The report go on to say that some owners have claim when it happened to them, they look down at the accelarator and it was not stuck to the floor mat. Now all eyes are on the drive by wire ECU, since Toyota started using DBW in 2002, Sudden Acceleration incidents have since double or triple.
Experts recommands when Sudden Acceleration or a runaway situation happens, try to shift the car in neutral and do not shut off the car. Also, do not hit the brakes, it will cause it to over heat and render it useless. Although it did mention that there are a few German cars that when your tap the brakes, it will cut off the throttle, anyone know which German cars does that?
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Runawa...ory?id=8980479
Last edited by bitkahuna; 02-03-10 at 08:23 AM.
11-03-09, 05:38 AM
#2
Toyota is cleared of any wrong doing on mats issue.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33592557/ns/business-autos/
Originally Posted by MSNBC
NEW YORK - Toyota says its vehicles are not at risk of accelerating out of control unless the driver's side floor mat is incorrectly installed or is not meant for that vehicle.
The Japanese automaker says the finding is the result of a U.S. government investigation into the possibility of unintentional acceleration in some of its vehicles. In August, Toyota announced a recall of 3.8 million vehicles in the U.S., urging the owners of the recalled vehicles to remove their driver's side floor mat because of the risk they could jam the accelerator pedal.
Toyota says the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has reviewed allegations of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles six times, clearing the automaker each time.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33592557/ns/business-autos/
Originally Posted by MSNBC
NEW YORK - Toyota says its vehicles are not at risk of accelerating out of control unless the driver's side floor mat is incorrectly installed or is not meant for that vehicle.
The Japanese automaker says the finding is the result of a U.S. government investigation into the possibility of unintentional acceleration in some of its vehicles. In August, Toyota announced a recall of 3.8 million vehicles in the U.S., urging the owners of the recalled vehicles to remove their driver's side floor mat because of the risk they could jam the accelerator pedal.
Toyota says the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has reviewed allegations of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles six times, clearing the automaker each time.
11-03-09, 05:45 AM
#3
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Obviously, if the floor mats were the only cause of Toyota and Lexus' Sudden Acceleration, that would be the best outcome for Toyota, but many Toyota owners remain convinced that an electronic problem is to blame. This is bad timing for Toyota, a story like this can spell trouble for Toyota at a time like this. I am sure Toyota have hundreads of lawyers working on this as we speak to spin this the right way.
11-03-09, 05:53 AM
#4
Obviously, if the floor mats were the only cause of Toyota and Lexus' Sudden Acceleration, that would be the best outcome for Toyota, but many Toyota owners remain convinced that an electronic problem is to blame. This is bad timing for Toyota, a story like this can spell trouble for Toyota at a time like this. I am sure Toyota have hundreads of lawyers working on this as we speak to spin this the right way.
As you can see by the last paragraph of the article that Toyota has been cleared 6 times of any unintended acceleration issue.
Seems Toyota is the big guy that everyone comes after more than any other auto manufacturer.One has to wonder about all these sudden acceleration claims mostly against Toyota and nothing about other companies.
11-03-09, 06:15 AM
#5
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
As you can see by the last paragraph of the article that Toyota has been cleared 6 times of any unintended acceleration issue.
Seems Toyota is the big guy that everyone comes after more than any other auto manufacturer.One has to wonder about all these sudden acceleration claims mostly against Toyota and nothing about other companies.
Seems Toyota is the big guy that everyone comes after more than any other auto manufacturer.One has to wonder about all these sudden acceleration claims mostly against Toyota and nothing about other companies.
Most of the sudden acceleration case are clear because there is almost never any evidence of electronics glitches. The black box is not going to give you that information and most of the time, assuming the driver survive the incident, it’s the driver's word against a Billion dollar cooperation like Toyota's.
11-03-09, 06:24 AM
#6
Well, claims and law suits goes hand in hand of being the number # 1 auto maker
Most of the sudden acceleration case are clear because there is almost never any evidence of electronics glitches. The black box is not going to give you that information and most of the time, assuming the driver survive the incident, it’s the driver's word against a Billion dollar cooperation like Toyota's.
Most of the sudden acceleration case are clear because there is almost never any evidence of electronics glitches. The black box is not going to give you that information and most of the time, assuming the driver survive the incident, it’s the driver's word against a Billion dollar cooperation like Toyota's.
I'm glad the mat issue is settled.
Now I can buy a set of Lexus all weather mats.
Last edited by Joeb427; 11-03-09 at 06:28 AM.
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11-03-09, 07:58 AM
#8
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Yes drive by wire is a great invention. It provides better fuel economy, smoother shifting and a safer car by in cooperating it with the stability system. The biggest question I guess is the fail safe design of a DBW computer. Some are design to cut throttle and some have redundant computers, but any redundant system is only as good as its sensor which detects failures. Do you really think it’s a mere coincidences that sudden acceleration incidents double and triple since auto manufacturers started using drive by wire.
11-03-09, 09:33 AM
#9
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I definitely think it's strange that a CHP officer would not know how to control a car if the only thing wrong was the accelerator being stuck.
11-03-09, 10:36 AM
#10
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
If you have seen the remain of that Lexus, it was in thousands of pieces. You will agree that there was no way to prove conclusively that it was the floor mat that caused the accident. As someowners have suggusted in that article above, they have confrim it was not the floor mats that was the problem. Of course Toyota would like to end it here with the floor mat recall, but there might be something that Toyota is not telling the public here.
11-03-09, 10:53 AM
#11
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/26/n...oyota-floorma/
Contrary to previous reports, the death of a four people and the largest recall in Toyota's history was caused by a compound of errors. The initial buzz/word on the virtual street suggested that it was simply an improperly placed floor mat that doomed CHP officer Mark Saylor and three family members when the Lexus ES350 they were traveling in got jammed open at over 100 MPH before crashing and bursting into flames. But it turns out it was more than just a floor mat.
First of all, the floor mat in question didn't belong to the ES350 (actually, the ES350 didn't belong to Officer Saylor -- it was a dealer loaner while his car was being worked on). The mats in the ES350 that crashed were from a RX400h. Not only that, they were those thick, all-weather hard rubber mats. Regardless, because the dealer had placed the wrong mats into the wrong car, there was no way to properly mount them. Also, it seems that the pedal design of the ES350 also played a role. The NHTSA discovered that, "Beyond the main pivot, the lever is not hinged and has no means for relieving forces caused by interferences." We think that means it can easily get stuck.
But that's not all. The NHTSA had also learned from a previous ES350 investigation that, "the Lexus ES braking system loses power-assist when the throttle is fully opened, increasing braking distance fivefold." That's not good. And the brakes had signs of heavy wear and damage, "Rotors were discolored and heated, had very rough surfaces, had substantial deposits of brake pad material, and showed signs of bright orange oxidation on the cooling fins consistent with endured braking."
Additionally, because the Lexus has push button start, the operator must push the button for three seconds before the engine will shut off. A piece of info obviously and sadly not known by Officer Saylor. The San Diego County Sheriff's office is leading the investigation and has not yet released their final report. We'll keep you posted on that, but as they say in plane crashes, looks like the holes in the swiss cheese all lined up.
First of all, the floor mat in question didn't belong to the ES350 (actually, the ES350 didn't belong to Officer Saylor -- it was a dealer loaner while his car was being worked on). The mats in the ES350 that crashed were from a RX400h. Not only that, they were those thick, all-weather hard rubber mats. Regardless, because the dealer had placed the wrong mats into the wrong car, there was no way to properly mount them. Also, it seems that the pedal design of the ES350 also played a role. The NHTSA discovered that, "Beyond the main pivot, the lever is not hinged and has no means for relieving forces caused by interferences." We think that means it can easily get stuck.
But that's not all. The NHTSA had also learned from a previous ES350 investigation that, "the Lexus ES braking system loses power-assist when the throttle is fully opened, increasing braking distance fivefold." That's not good. And the brakes had signs of heavy wear and damage, "Rotors were discolored and heated, had very rough surfaces, had substantial deposits of brake pad material, and showed signs of bright orange oxidation on the cooling fins consistent with endured braking."
Additionally, because the Lexus has push button start, the operator must push the button for three seconds before the engine will shut off. A piece of info obviously and sadly not known by Officer Saylor. The San Diego County Sheriff's office is leading the investigation and has not yet released their final report. We'll keep you posted on that, but as they say in plane crashes, looks like the holes in the swiss cheese all lined up.
11-03-09, 11:09 AM
#12
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I'm assuming a CHP officer would instinctively throw it into Neutral. Loss of power assist makes it harder to brake, but it will still slow the car down as long as power is cut to the drive wheels.
11-03-09, 01:31 PM
#14
Lexus Champion
Audi had the same unintended acceleration issues too, but it was more to do with layout than design as Europeans are used to driving stick and there's people over there who heel-toe when they drive.