LexFather

I'm not entirely sure if its a great thing or a bad thing that the IS-F began as a skunkworks project with only a few people working on it. The reason is the IS-F is rather focused for a Lexus and only had a few people working on it. While I do want more "F" cars, I am slightly scared it will become a big company initiative with more people and bean counters more involved. Its clear the IS-F wasn't meant to be produced but here it is, a legitimate player in its class. I like the focus from a few people. We don't want consumer questionnaire "F" products.

Reviewing who has bought the car, its a variety of people but I noticed 3 groups. Many are previous Lexus owners who want the highest form of Lexus performance. A few are previous German owners who are simply tired of reliability problems. A few are previous Infiniti owners who wanted to stay with a Japanese brand.

Lexus of course always gets hit for being "unsporty" even as the vehicles have gotten sportier over time. Lexus continues to offer a manual in the IS and went from L-tuned to now F-sport parts. Lexus even has offered track events for people to participate in. Seems rather sporty to me. Are they 911s? No! However they are far from the Town Cars some would have you believe.

The IS-F is not perfect. No car is. The styling is not for everyone. Some people prefer a manual. Its smallish to some. Even if you don't like it, its performance more than shows it is LEGIT. Some reviews have said its "too track oriented". Imagine that from a Lexus.

In the past I started a thread proposing Toyota have two distinct luxury brands, one with the traditional Lexus buyer in mind and the other for the sportier driving Lexus driver. While that is not going to happen, I do feel an expanded F line from Lexus would be a BIG PROBLEM. As in a good thing.

The Lexus "F" line offers two distinct advantages
1. Reliability
2. The only Japanese brand in this segment

Spare me your stories of "oh German AMG/M/RS quality is better". I've read, talked to people and they LOVE the cars but HATE the issues. Again, some have moved to the IS-F so they can actually enjoy DRIVING the vehicle. The IS-F has been around a couple years now and while it hasn't been perfect looking at threads, things seem to be minor. Its literally a car you can drive the snot out of and it will just go and go and go, just change the oil. This is VERY appealing to people. Now you might say "well at these price ranges, it doesn't matter if you have to fix the car" but a lot of people do get fed up with problems with supposedly superior engineering. With a IS-F, GS-F, LS-F, SC-F even a RX-F line, they would surely drive as good as the best of them, maybe not the fastest at the track, but you could LIVE with with the vehicle. Yes, it would lack so prestige, panache, etc but that is one quality Lexus would have here and they NEED to exploit it.

So they would have a market of German owners who wants to try it out. The other market is the loyal Asian car buyer who wants to stay with a Japanese car for you guessed it, reliability. Maybe the old NSX buyer, the Infiniti owner, even now the Hyundai Genesis owner who wants something rarer, faster, harder. Lexus has this segment to itself now and needs to continue to expand the "F" lineup as there are tons of buyers ready for it. While Acura is backpedaling and Infiniti improves but struggles, this is a clear market for Lexus to exploit. The "F" lineup also will be the "Japanese" way of doing things, which is distinct from what everyone else does. A lot of people want that. A lot of people want and can have both.

You see most cars in this class are not track driven, they are not abused, they are not revved everytime. Most are automatics, most are 2nd or 3rd cars and most are driven relaxed. AMG/M/RS/F/V/R (Lawd are there any letters left) cars have a huge appeal that the interentz will not talk about.

They are simply the top of the food chain and people want it for that. Guess what, there is NOTHING wrong with that. Its your money, gotdamnit if you want a 500hp AMG car, you deserve it. If you want a car that is rarer than the more pedestrian V-8 models, then you go AMG/M/RS/F/V/R . If you want to drive something that makes people go "damn I love that car" at meets or outside a restaurant, that is what its for. These cars are about *****, BIG ***** and even if you have never been in a fight, you don't own a gun, hell your dad bought you the car, they each scream "I CAN DRIVE" (even if you get scared on an expansion ramp) If you ever go to a AMG/RS/M meet, its an event, most people are very cool and they compare the size of their *****.

Don't try to preach "well this is stupid, high performance cars are supposed to break". You sound like the guys in the 1980s that said "luxury cars are supposed to break". Also if you look Porsche has consistently scored high in quality scores, showing sport and reliability can go hand in hand. Its actually a selling attribute for Porsche. Going past them reliability is a selling point for the R8 and the legendary NSX. The NSX was a huge hit for people b/c they didn't have to worry about being stranded, it could be a DD and well, you just change the oil (why Honda gave up on it, I'll never know).

So Lexus, build it and they will come. The IS-F has proven that. BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME.

Now understand, the "F" brand will never be a threat to M/RS/AMG....they have too many models, too much heritage and they are just wonderful.

I worry for Acura & Infiniti , who supposedly are "sportier" but don't compete here and have no plans to. At least if you are an Infiniit/Nissan fan, you can get that GT-R and kick all these cars asses. With an expanded "F" line, it really lays waste to any claim that another Japanese brand is sportier. They really should have re-badged a GT-R.....

The LF-A will be the ultimate showcase for Lexus and sport. Why it it taking so long? EVERYTHING IS NEW!!! This is not a replacement for the ES this is taking the IS-F and multiplying it by a factor of 20. Think of it as a NSX times 10. More quality, more reliability, more luxury, more speed, more handling.

In 1989, they shocked the world with the LS. IN 2009 it will be the LF-A. Amazingly the two cars are so different from another its not even funny and it shows Lexus has evolved to something than just catering to the LS/ES buyer.

Lastly I want to tell people be patient. BMW only had the M3 initially, it took time to expand the lineup. AMG was a SEPERATE company from Mercedes and they bought them in the early 1990s and their first official car was what the C36? They had one car and today they have what a dozen? Audi is the same, having expanded to where they are today.

I'm pretty sure my next car will be an IS-F b/c I'm not dead yet and not hearing a sound from the GSh while driving can make the ***** shrink ( I love the car, just need something with a little bite). I want a tag that says "Big *****" on my IS-F

Thanks for reading.

Mike

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

I agree.

F is a win/win for Lexus no matter how you look at it. Whether it's F Sport parts or an IS F, GS F, LS F, or SC F, Lexus really has the makings for success any way that you want to cut it. Nice write up man.

Another thing to consider is, IMO, the dilution and prostitution of M cars. BMW seems to be using the M badge as little more than a superficial label to help sell vehicles to people who don't know any better. "It says M so it's high performance, like, duh!" Products like the X5M or X6M couldn't be any further from the founding legacy that cars like the M3 represent. It's sad to see.

Audi unfortunately seems to be doing the same thing with the RS3 (really, a RS product based on a FWD VW Rabbit platform?), though to a lesser extent as BMW since the Q7 and Q5 have been spared so far.

At the point in time that Mercedes makes a GL 63 AMG or GLK 65 AMG, I will be saying the same thing. The ML 63 is a disgrace, but passable I suppose.

My point is that in recent years these performance brands have become more of a sales proposition than a legacy. This is no doubt partly influenced by the fact that the market has told consumers that they need sportier, faster, harder cars and automakers have responded. I'm sure that an X5 M or ML 63 AMG is a profitable vehicle to make and sell, but what does it say about "AMG" or "M"? It's laughable.

I would like to see Lexus build truly high performance versions of the GS, LS, and SC, but for them to leave it there. An ES F would be a joke, and so would an RX F. The Japanese have a long history with high performance machines and I would like to see "uncompromised performance" be the heart of F cars. If Lexus could deliver something based on that in the form of an IS F, GS F, LS F and SC F, then I think it would be a great showcase of ability, technology, and true enthusiast appreciation. I hope they do it!

STIG

Then u'd be lying all the time. everyone knows //M owners have bigger *****.

mmarshall

The "track orientation" of the IS-F that is sometimes quoted refers essentially to two things.

First, the suspension is very harsh, even by upmarket sports-sedan standards. Many, if not all, enthusiast mags have commented on this, and Road & Track said it was the one thing on their long-term test IS-F that was a pain in the a**.........but they liked everything else on the car, and wouldn't change a thing other than the ride quality. I noticed, on the one I myself reviewed, that the suspension, on frost heaves and bumps, tossed the rear end up and down (and sometimes slightly sideways) like a porpoise. Potholes and broken pavement went right through the tires and front suspension like it was a punching bag. It was almost as stiff (though not as noisy) as the last Mitsubishi Evo I drove.....a car notorious for harshness.

Second (and I remember that you, from your write-up, noticed this yourself, just like I did, when you first drove one) the torque is rather flat below 3600 RPM, then explodes between 3600 and 4000 RPM...a characteristic more useful on the track than on the street, where the RPMs generally don't stay up as much.

If Lexus is going to do an F-series expansion, these are issues that they may want to keep in mind.

lex

RX-F would be interesting. Better than ES-F anyway.

CDNROCKIES

Good thread Mike!

I was just reading this morning a thread on a certain BMW forum that had them all up in arms because C&D....yes, that Car and Driver....was raving about their long term test of the IS F and called their beloved M3 DCT "tired". If C&D is praising the F and not humping the M3's leg as usual it must be a legitimate contender.

Please do not suggest a RX F! My wife and I saw a couple of Cayenne Turbo's and an ML 63 and were discussing the pointlessness of the "performance" SUV's. The whole concept of racing SUV's is absurd. The RX does a great job of catering to their target demographic.

The point isn't that these cars get driven to their limit all the time....but that they are a freakin' blast to push once in a while for most owners. I'm not even going to sit here and pretend that I don't love pulling up to another high performance car to see where we sit. I've run a GT R, Challenger SRT-8, Charger SRT-8, C5 Corvette, last gen stock S4, SL 55 AMG and had a ridiculous amoung of fun....win or lose....(ok...I only lost to the GT R...but they were all still fun).

It is not ok for cars like this to break. Spend some time on the C63 or M3 forums and you'll see, that in comparison, the F is far more reliable than either of the Germans. Their owners are pissed...as they should be about several issues that they have faced.

Whether or not Lexus is a "threat" to the German's is immaterial....there is room enough for Audi, BMW, MB and Lexus at the top. However, for Lexus to firmly plant themselves as a Tier 1 brand they need to have an expanded performance line up. Each of the other brands offers something more at every level as far as performance goes.

I hope you do get one Mike, they are a ton of fun.

Like I've mentioned in other threads, unless Lexus brings a serious contender to the table in a new GS F, I will likely look to the new M5 or E63. I just don't see anything in the Lexus lineup, excluding the LS, that really piques my interest anymore.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Even current BMW owners deride the upcoming X5/6 M's as being uneccessary and pointless.

I'm not even going to get into your first point as we have both made our positions clear.

However, regarding your second point, it's supposed to be flat and quiet below that threshold so that we can enjoy it as a DD. The explosion occurs between 3800 - 6000 rpm's and in Manual Sport mode, gets their incredibly quickly. That is why the car is the perfect balance as a DD. Leave it in Auto "regular" mode and the car drives very smoothly and quietly. Switch it over and the beast is unleashed in a very quick, very loud hurry.

Lets Drive

iTrader: (3)

I actually find power down low to be more drivable, daily. My right foot dictates how much of an explosion occurs, and proper modulation can still keep things smooth and quiet; however, having to wait for the car to rev or downshift in order to get into the power band, isn't as desirable for me on the street.

encore888

Excellent thread!!!

I agree, more Lexus F models are eagerly awaited! LF-A, then GS-F, then new IS-F, also perhaps an LS-F. Not to mention the IS-F coupes.

However, there should be more to the F raison d'etre than they are more reliable than the rest. That's how some reduce Lexus to. IMO, they should also highlight Lexus' technological prowess and innovations, no-compromises luxury+sport (James Bond like), a 'pure' F lineup (not watered down like some rival badges) with only serious performance models, very distinctive styling that differentiates the models (and gets them noticed, valet parked at the front etc), and perhaps more customization (interior options, etc), among other distinctive features.

And yes let's continue with the focused skunkworks operation...just have the main engineers of the next IS design it from the outset to accommodate that V8 engine; just like the next GS should be, and have the F-team, Mr. Yaguchi et al do the rest.

superchan7

How about an HS-Fh? HAHA do not want.

SLegacy99

If I'm going to drive an automatic then it's going to be a hybrid. I don't care how many gears it has or how fast it shifts. I guess an M car is the only one suited for me.

MPLexus301

iTrader: (3)

Have you ever driven an IS F?

And PS, hybrids don't have automatics

SLegacy99

I have not.

And hybrids do not have manual transmissions that one would shift themselves (save the discontinued MT Insight and Civic hybrids). A CVT is an automatic transmission. It just doesn't have gears like a conventional automatic transmission. Nevertheless, it does the varying of ratios for you.

mmarshall

Fine. But so have most of the auto magazines, which basically agree with me.

It actually starts a little lower than that (around 3600), unless they've re-programmed the fuel injection lately.

Jetfire

iTrader: (3)

lexus should build more f cars and f sport parts. just don't bastardize the F line. no RX-F or GX-F or LX-F.

tcheung87

Why don't you care?