ArmyofOne

I know that, I never said it was a luxury car (though I dont see at all where you said I did either, I was just making myself clear), it is by NO MEANS a luxury car, but by incororating luxury car features into a small/midsize sedan, Honda can appeal to a wider range of customers.

FKL

Not very many luxury features - no power/memory seats, puddle lighting, no trunk lining, hood prop...This is still a Civic. I understand Honda competes with their Asian rivals, but they could certainly step up the refinement (Read: Noise insulation). I have two Honda Accords (6th and 7th gen, both top trim, both with nearly unacceptable road noise for cars of their price range).

With that said, the engine in the Civic is a very refined, easy to rev peppy little thing, especially with the manual.

mmarshall

One of the reasons why Honda does not put more money into noise isolation could be (?) that it spends so much on quality control and assembly precision. I know the term "Built like a Swiss Watch" is getting tired and worn-out, but the average Honda/Acura vehicle, IMO, has better general quality control than that from any other automaker. In fact (and Mike, 1SICKLEX, will enjoy hearing me say this)...Honda, in general, with the exception of the superb RL, outdoes its more expensive Acura brother in quality control. Lexus used to be the best, up till about 5-6 years ago, but some of the newer ones have slipped up noticeably.

Now, that does NOT mean that Honda always uses the highest-quality materials.....I've seen some long-term complaints, for example, about Honda paint fading and upholstery deterioration. But if you take the condition of the car as it comes off the assembly line, Hondas, short-term, IMO, appear to be the best. Subarus, Toyotas, and some of the newer Nissan/Infiniti products are also up there.....but Subaru and Toyota, like Lexus, have shown some increasing cheapness in their newer interiors.

ArmyofOne

I forgot that, there is puddle lighting, as well as door sill lighting available on all 09 models, previously was only avail on EX.

And no trunk lining? I have full carpet all the way around (trunk included), an underhood insulation pad, and my road noise is quite acceptable, as was the 09 model. The tires automakers choose factory have alot to do with that. If honda would choose the goodyear comfortread or michelin MXV4 (or equivalent) tire, road noise would be reduced from the factory even further. There are LS400's that are quieter, and avalons, but among the compacts, i think the civic is quietest. even the corolla isnt quiet. Show me a $20-$25,000 NEW car in the civic class (or above it for that matter) that is to the standard of a lexus in terms of road noise. You wont find one. I am picky about road noise, I cant stand it, and trust me, tires can make a WORLD of difference.

In the end, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and again, I am baised slightly, but all in all, the civic is great car for the money.

FKL

Hey man, at least we can admit our biases

As far as road noise, the Golf/Jetta are much more hushed than the Civic. This is the first thing you will notice if (and when ) you drive one. As for the trunks, Honda still doesn't offer trunk lining on their Accords sans EX models, ditto with Civic - it's cheap, just like the ancient intruding trunk hinges are (should be hidden or articulated with gas strut (mid 90s Civic actually had this).

mmmarshall, assembly quality meh:/ I don't know what that means. All I know is that there isn't really any excuse for poor noise insulation on most Honda vehicles. There is a large, large difference between an Accord and a Camry in this regard, for instance. I have nothing wrong with hearing the engine growl, but hearing water splash against the wheel wells is obnoxious and annoying on a vehicle approaching $27,000. If you get up and look under a Honda, you'll see an obvious lack of shields and galvanization compared to some European cars. I can only guess this cost containment spread to the noise control. Honda cars are very competitive price wise for their safety and powertrain refinement, but you can spot why (at least I can).

vboy418

kool beans!

mmarshall

OK, then, I'll tell you what it means. In Honda's case, it means that parts fit together like they should, with close (and in some cases, extremely close) tolerances, precise fit, no squeaks, no rattles, no leaks, no loose trim parts, no sharp or roughly finished edges, a smooth, even paint job witn little or no orange peel, a fluid/quality feel to buttons, levers, *****, etc....

THAT's Honda. IMO, they do it better than even their more expensive Acura cousins, except for the superb RL.

ArmyofOne

Ill take a picture of the inside of the trunk for you. there is definite insulation.

and my wheel wells are pretty well covered. This is good though, its teaching me what to pay more attention to.

Camry is in the same class as the accord, so yes i can see the comparison there, but not with the Civic, thats Corolla territory. I can agree there may more noise than there should be...but perhaps you havent chosen the correct tires for your accord? I really have no complaints with the noise levels, even at highway speeds with 40,000 miles on my Civic.

FKL

mmarshall, I have to disagree with this. If you venture to any Honda forum, there isn't much to talk about but the rattles of Honda products (as they are reliable, after all). A rattle here, a rattle there - Honda has rattles all around their interiors, Acura is not immune either. Personally, my EX V6 Accord has a rattle of plastic in the moonroof tracks. The newer EX coupe has a rattle in the rear pillar, on the hat shelf, AND behind the navigation system. They are all annoying, and they are not out of the ordinary for a Honda.

Secondly, if that's the definition of assembly quality, I'll have to disagree once again. Just on paint, Honda needs to improve, no questions asked. I can take some pictures of the orange peel of my black coupe if you want, but it's there and it pisses me off every time I see it. Sounds like "assembly quality" is essentially "fit/finish" by your definition, and I don't exactly see eye to eye with you on this. For instance the buttons on the interior, when pushed, all give a nice creak to the entire trim piece behind it, not cool. When using the Navigation display, the pushing creaks the plastic around the area, annoying and cheap. Much of the plastic inside the interior is just that - plastic. Their is even a prized screwhead from below the cluster overhang, cheap. I'm just glad I don't have the plastic door pulls of the newer Honda/Acura products. Don't get me wrong, there are much worse interiors out there from some select American manufactures, but I wish the material and assembly quality was better done, because ergonomically and design wise, everything is top-notch, not unlike every new Acura interior.

ArmyofOne

Eh, my rear deck rattles (think rear speaker locations)...it happens. I fixed mine tho. How many miles does your accord have? Push a Climate control button on a late model 635 sedan...oh boy.

Lexus/Acura/Infinity typically pay more attention to detail because...lets face it...there can be a price difference of $20,000+. Think about it...If i just paid north of $90,000 for an LS460L, and I turned off the radio at ANY speed, and heard anything other than dead silence...I would be perturbed. However, most Civic/accord buyers do not expect this. LOL.

Things do shake loose in cars, they are machines and are subject ot some pretty extreme vibrations. Im just saying .

For that matter, consider what you put your car through everyday...
-bugs
-water
-wind
-constant vibration
-tweaking/twisting
-fairly extreme heat
-rapid heating/cooling cycles
-inside of car is cold, outside is hot (or vice versa depending on location/season)
-high speed projectiles (you are doing 60mph, a truck flings a rock up at you that is also doing 60 in the opposite direction...that rock just hit your paint/windshield with the equivalent force of a 120 mph hit! )
-sudden, harsh suspension hits (potholes, etc).
-Unibody torquing, (coming out of a parking lot down one of those flattened curb things, at an angle with an unequal weight distrobution (avg 170 lb man in drivers seat, no passeneger)...


There are more, i just cant think of them.

You wanna see a nasty interior? mid 90's chevy products...now those are nasty (think 95' cavalier).

Ah yes, honda's paint...Smooth and glossy...for 5 minutes after delivery. First 5 minutes on a public hwy/road and you have at least 2 dings from rocks. The civic's esp. are notorious for this. And I believe there is a recall for that sunroof rattle on accords MY 03-06, might wanna check on that.

mmarshall

OC, both you and FKL have some valid points. I review mostly new cars, usually with less than 100 miles on them, so my comments have to do more with how they come out of the factory more than what they are like sometime down the road. The point that FLK makes about Fit/Finish is valid.....that, of course, ties in with assembly quality. Almost all manufacturers (The Acura RL and Mercedes Gelandewagen are rare exceptions) seem to be using more and more lightweight parts for their new and redesigned vehicles.....whether for weight control, cost-cutting, or both. And the G-Wagon goes back to the 1980's, when heavier parts were much more common.

FKL, sunroofs and moonroofs are notorious for integrity problems with age, including rattles. That is one reason, among several, why I prefer not to have them on vehicles I own.

nthach

I work at a Honda dealer, I see shoddy paint all the time. My advice is get a clear bra on the critical parts and wax it regularly. As far as NVH goes, I know the older Accords have a 5lb. sprung weight in the rear bulkhead and a similar weight setup in the front bumper to offset some vibrations from the body - and it was first to feature engine mounts controlled by a vacuum solenoid.

The Germans too have exterior issues - mostly with glass. European or Mexican made Sekurit glass is softer and it doesn't handle cracking well.

And GM had atrocious interiors, so did Ford and Chrysler. I had to bust the ignition on a 1990 Jeep Cherokee that was a trade in. The interior was full of cheap plastic.

Nextourer

Thanks for the review! I wonder if the same leather is used on the Acura CSX sold up here in Canada.

Also, I don't like Honda's use of "8 airbags". The salesman insist on saying it has 8 airbags. It doesn't. It has 6. Honda says 8 because it counts the curtain airbags as separate for the front and rear so instead of saying 2 side curtains, it's 4 side curtains just to up the number to 8.

ArmyofOne

Within the interior of my car you can look, and count 8 different airbags. They are also sector controlled, meaning the bags will only deploy where they are needed. No longer does a front end collision trigger all 8 airbags, only the front 2, or 4 if nessecary. side curtains are used in vehciles with large windows. The Civic doesnt have larger surface area of glass, save for the windshield.

The airbags are driver and passenger, a-pillar, b-pillarm and c-pillar.

Threxx

Has that ever really not been the case? I thought pretty much ever since cars moved past dual front airbags they've always had mechanisms to determine which airbags should deploy and which ones shouldn't.