Och

iTrader: (3)

Quit hijacking the topic. When I said E320 is inferior to GS430, I meant in the engine performance, not fuel economy. Whether its the old 3.2 V6, the CDI or Bluetec, neither one is anywhere near GS430's engine performance, and if you fail to see that, go drive one for youself.

As far as E class interior, I think its vomit inducing, if you dont agree with me, bite me.


I would not say the hybrid technology is overrated, I would say some people, such as salesmen that you have mentioned, overrate it. Those who do not understand the technology, hey its their own fault. But if you understand the technology, and if its suits your driving, then its great.

For the mixed driving hybrids will still get better mileage than comparable petrols. The only time a hybrid might amount to lesser economy is if you drive on the highway for hundres of miles without ever using your brakes. If thats how you drive most of your time, then by all means, avoid the hybrid. But for most of us living in the urban US cities, we spend a lot of time in traffic so hybrid are great for most of us.

So yeah, hybrid is not perfect but at least its an improvement for most of us, and hybrid is the only technology that improves fuel economy that is available today, right now, and Toyota seems to be the only company pushing it, with everyone else not caring. If you're saying hybrids are so bad, can you please name something better? Please don't say diesel, because hybrids and diesels just dont compete with each other, hybrid is a separate supplement technology. I bet if Mercedes added a hybrid option to your beloved diesel engine, you would be raving about it.

As far as your love for diesels, would you please explain why is that roughly 50% of Germans buy petrol cars willing to pay more per gallon and get worse fuel economy? Maybe diesels aren't all that hot anyway?

Besides, you;re blaming Toyota for exploiting the market, which is ridiculous to begin with - what do you expect them to do, sit and wait until Germans exploit it first? Thats just not how capitalism works, and its German's own fault that they couldnt make their diesels comply with US emissions requirements until very recent.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Ron, I dont think there will be winners or loosers in Diesel vs Hybrid, because these two technologies just dont compete against each other. The ultimate winner will be whoever comprehends it first and makes a combination of the two.

That being said, even that is not the ultimate answer. OPEC and Deek Cheney are just going to raise the price of oil to offset for whatever improvements in fuel economy we achieve. So until we see fully electric cars, everything else is like pissing against the wind.

RON430

Thanks for the post. I hope that new A4 body has a bit more room for me to maneuver my back into. Might not be my choice for a highway cruiser but I sure like that option more than a Prius. Disclaimer: I am not trying to run down the Prius but I started this to talk about higher mileage options for the Luxury/Sport Sedan class and what's coming up. And this is really the first post bringing in something I didn't know. My wife and I have both had convertibles and I am not sure we see that as practical but she commented the other day on a convert A4. Have to admit, one nice looking drop top. Go get em Audi.

RON430

Well, ignoring the political comment, not disagreeing just prefering to stay with something a whole lot more fun, cars, I obviously agree again. I am probably not putting it very well and I am also probably dead wrong but the bigger argument I can see for the Euros not bringing any of the current offerings is because they are believing that Americans are going to prefer hybrids. I am not blowing smoke, I wouldn't mind owning a hybrid, but I really just want more choice. Like I said, I'm a greedy son of a gun and I want all the choices I can get. We probably agree that in the long run electric or hybrid will do very well but, and I can't believe I am posting this with gas at darned near $5/gal, I can still work with a pure gas vehicle and feed it.

If it weren't for my back I would probably have a Cayman in the garage for running around. My wife and I really loved our MR2 but that was fifteen years ago. A couple of back operations and more years, and I don't see me really using something that small again. I think that another thread, or maybe in this thread, could address some of the smaller, better mileage sports cars but I wanted to focus on the larger models. And no one has to bring up the Elise or Exige or whatever its called. Great track day car. Not so great grocery getter.

PS, If anything, hanging around here for as long as I have, I certainly have seen my share of passionate defense of things that I don't agree with. Maybe I am mellowing out or I've just declared defeat but I am willing to say the current E class doesn't have what I consider an interior that goes with the price of the car. I could get more enthusiastic in that but hey, they sell a lot of the things so it could just be me. I do hope they step it up in the next gen, I am hoping that they are at this fall's auto shows and it will be on my list.

Och

iTrader: (3)

double post.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Actually I think the Euros are not bringing in the diesels because petrols are cash cows and sell in droves. Same with Lexus ES, I know you want an ES-h, but with regular ES topping 6-7k sales a month, Lexus just cant be bothered with a hybrid model.

RON430

Sucks, doesn't it. Assuming that made it through the nanny filter. You obviously can make the same argument for the SUVs. As much relief as it would bring a lot of people, I hope oil stays high and people get religion and the mfrs start getting us higher mileage. I don't care if they still want to offer bazillion hp uber panzers but please, please, please, get some of us some better options to gas guzzlers.

The monthly sales figures, which I always find interesting, are going to be really fascinating going forward. Obviously you have to be doing pretty well to affect these figures, I mean you are going out and buying a new car after all. But seeing how the buying trends develop has got to be the only really stick we have to beat these guys with to get us some higher mileage cars. Once again, the point of this thread is that L/SS segment and I just don't know what we will see here. There's buyers out there that just don't want to wind up in a Prius or Yaris to not go crazy when you have to fill up.

The Audi engine is pretty interesting, if the increase pans out. But how long it will take to spread to the other ranges? Not a very good bet. Maybe I will have to hold on to at least look at a Fisker as well as a Panamera.

linh811

unless you're some sort of save the planet tree hugger, buying a $70k car and worrying about mpg is kinda pointless?

MR_F1

The solution is not in the engines. I don't want my L/SS with any less power than they have now, and I'm sure a lot of people feel that way. Todays engines are way more efficient than engines of the past.

The answer is in the weight of the vehicles. Power levels stay where they are today and weight goes down, handling & feel improve, vehicle dynamics & efficiency improves, mileage improves. Cut the fat, problem solved.

I agree.

RON430

Well if you bothered to read the rest of the thread, the post is pointless. You really think there are people lining up to buy Range Rovers to put $125 to $175 in the tank with a smile because they can afford the RR in the first place? Maybe you should go look at some used car lots and see what is showing up from people who thought that they just didn't care about the price of gas.

I have a feeling there are going to be vehicles available for those that just can't wait to pump $200 in the tank in a few years. Believe me, I am no tree hugger. With any luck, whether there is a tiny percentage of the market that can't wait to feed a hp habit in the future, the car mfrs are going to get some religion and offer higher mileage L/SS models. It's obvious that you didn't read the rest of the thread very closely but, as I said, I want it all. I can give up 0-60 in 5 seconds but I am not looking for 0-60 in 14 sec either. And there are models out there right now that offer much better mileage than we have available to us in the US that still have very respectable performance. We just have to small a percentage of people that claim they have to have 500hp+ or a Suburban to take two kids to school to make the mfrs believe they will sell here. If we can get lighter weight vehicles with more efficient power supplies, I really don't care what happens to the price of oil. It can just keep going up as far as I am concerned.

I had my fun hot rodding in the 60s when 113 octane pump gas was 33 cents a gallon. I believe the future is a lot more something like the Fisker than the current S550. The Fisker is a plug in hybrid with a 125 mph top end that will probably give you nightmares so just don't worry about that. Since they lowered the speed limit in Cali to under 155 I haven't been able to enjoy top end anyway. but it is also said to do 0-62 in under 6 seconds. It is a plug in hybrid that will travel for some initial distance totally on battery. Then it will be able to use its internal motor to recharge but for my commute, I doubt I would have to fuel it much. Now, I have all sorts of problems with boutique car companies but it is intriguing and I am hoping that there are a couple available next year for something less than $150K from their expected $80K base.

"Fisker Automotive is taking a novel approach to merging beauty and style with an environmental conscience. The car features cutting-edge plug-in hybrid technology, penned as Q DRIVE, developed by Quantum Technologies exclusively for Fisker Automotive. The Karma's Q DRIVE configuration consists of a small gasoline engine that turns the generator, which charges the lithium ion battery pack, powering the electric motor and turning the rear wheels.

This proprietary design allows consumers' to drive the car emission free for up to 50 miles (80km) a day provided the car is charged every evening. It's conceivable that if consumers follow this daily routine, they will only need to fuel the car but once a year. This means it will not only cut down on pollution and global warming, but on a consumer's gasoline budget as well. This Q DRIVE technology will provide a base for all future derivatives from Fisker Automotive.

The Fisker Karma will offer partly self-contained climate control, as consumers will have the option to purchase a full-length solar roof that will help charge the car and provide cooling for the interior cabin while the car is parked. Additionally, Fisker Automotive will offer consumers an option to purchase a set of solar panels for their roofs or garages where they can generate electricity during the day to charge the car overnight…again cost and emission free.

Statistics show that the majority of pollution from automobiles occurs on consumers' daily commute to and from work or dropping the kids off at school. Currently, more than 60% of Americans and Europeans are driving less than 50 miles (80km) on their daily commute. If this 60% of commuters would drive a plug-in hybrid like the Fisker Karma, we could see the fastest possible reduction both in oil consumption and emissions - all without sacrificing their daily driving habits. Additionally, plug-in hybrids have the potential to augment the planning of cleaner electrical power plants, ultimately producing a dramatic effect on our society and future generations.

Ignore the tree hugger stuff, I am.

doug_999

The market (and that's people like Ron who are buying these things) is calling for it - thus...

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=365194

Och

iTrader: (3)

Well, unfortunately by cutting a vehicles weight means cutting a lot of features. Of course another option would be to use exotc materials instead of traditional materials, but that drives the cost up well beyond the potential fuel saving.

MR_F1

I would not consider Aluminum 'exotic'. I also don't think that you need to cut many features to be able to reduce weight. If the A8 did not have AWD it would be SIGNIFICANTLY lighter than the LS460 for example [It uses aluminum space frame technology]. Clever engineering can solve anything, once it is applied in the right area.

You won't see power levels going back down, you will see weight go down once the automakers figure it out.

You see, Aluminum is more expensive because it costs more to refine, because of high electricity costs which are rising because of..............you guessed it, higher fuel costs

Somebody has to take the hit at some point in order to get it all right. It will most likely be the consumer.......as usual.

RON430

July 7, 2008, Autoweek

Panamera Possibilies

Porsche has a diesel and a targa top in the works for the Panamera, according to an AutoWeek source who attended a recent Porsche focus group.

Porsche would likely borrow diesel engines from Audi, including the 4.2 liter V8 and a 6.0 liter V12 found in the R8 TDI Le Mans concept. The diesel would join Panamera powered by gas and hybrid powertrains.

Porsche also showed the focus group renderings of a Panamera with a three panel targa roof, suggesting the likelihood of another Panamera trim level in keeping with the German sports car makers 911 model strategy.


A shame no one has the guts at Porsche to just say what the engines in the Panamer will be in the US in the first, say, five years. The 4.2 Audi diesel would make one very nice L/SS and give almost nothing away in performance. Greed is good.

RON430

As this relates to the less gas guzzling part of the new 7, apologies if it is a repost. ALso from Autoweek.

2009 BMW 7 Series

By WES RAYNAL

It looks a lot like the outgoing model, but BMW says the fifth-generation 7 Series is all new.

The car, which will make its world premiere at the Paris motor show this fall, takes styling cues from the CS concept BMW showed in Shanghai in 2007, though the new 7 can best be described as evolutionary rather than revolutionary as the last generation was.

The new car is slightly larger than the outgoing car and is distinctively edgier, with flatter surfaces and tauter forms. Up front, the kidney grille looks more exaggerated, and in the rear, the tail lamps, spoiler and decklid look far more integrated than the hideous (but aerodynamically functional) tail on the previous model.

A new V8 will power the 7 Series (750i and 750Li) when it goes on sale here in spring 2009: the 4.4-liter, 400-hp, 450-lb-ft twin-turbo V8 introduced in the X6. A 3.0-liter, 326-hp twin-turbo six-cylinder and a 245-hp diesel won’t come to the United States initially, but “never say never,” said a BMW source. The engine is mated to a six-speed automatic transmission.

There’s also a rumored gas-electric hybrid model using the two-mode system developed in three-way cooperation with General Motors and Daimler. Although not part of the launch lineup, it could be on sale in the next year, kicking off what BMW sources said will eventually be an extended range of hybrids in coming years.

The car’s suspension is new, made primarily of aluminum components, and the new 7 is the first BMW sedan to use the automaker’s double-wishbone front axle. The rear is multilink.

The 2009 7 Series comes standard with BMW’s newly developed Dynamic Damping Control. At the touch of a button, the driver can choose the degree of damping force and the gearshift dynamics of the automatic transmission, as well as the control maps for the gas pedal and steering assistance. The system has comfort, normal, sports and sports-plus modes. Active steering is optional again, but this time, it can also change the rear-wheel steering angles by 3 degrees.

Other optional goodies include night vision, lane-departure warning, adaptive cruise control, massaging rear seats and rear view and side view cameras.

Inside, the gear lever has been moved back to the center console. BMW says the new, second-generation iDrive system is easier to use, with more readable graphics on an updated and better-integrated screen.

As for the CS from which the 7 Series designers drew inspiration, the model is intended to bridge the gap between the 7 Series and Rolls-Royce, where its job will be to fend off advances from the coming Porsche Panamera and Aston Martin Rapide.