Are Hybrids worth it?
05-13-08, 02:31 AM
#16
I agree. You can't simply compare MSRP. You have to get the two cars as close in options as you possibly can then compare the prices. You also can't simply compare MSRP either. Unless you are the type of person who only and always pays MSRP for their cars. You have to compare actual selling price. If similarly equipped Camry's were selling for $1000 over invoice and the average day, and the same similarly equipped Camry Hybrid's are still selling for $500 under MSRP, that is a couple thousand dollar difference in real world prices.
As the OP mentioned, it would be nice if some of these economy bread hybrids actually had fairly stripped down trims offered. Many of them, including the Prius have a lot of added on standard options that DO add cost to the vehicle. Sometimes people looking to buy a hybrid are the ones that can't afford the gas prices and thus looking for much more fuel efficient cars. They may not want or be able to afford all those standard options in the hybrid version. You probably could knock off $2-$4K off the MSRP without some of these options. This is why I sometimes say those that really need and could benefit from hybrid cars often can't afford them.
As the OP mentioned, it would be nice if some of these economy bread hybrids actually had fairly stripped down trims offered. Many of them, including the Prius have a lot of added on standard options that DO add cost to the vehicle. Sometimes people looking to buy a hybrid are the ones that can't afford the gas prices and thus looking for much more fuel efficient cars. They may not want or be able to afford all those standard options in the hybrid version. You probably could knock off $2-$4K off the MSRP without some of these options. This is why I sometimes say those that really need and could benefit from hybrid cars often can't afford them.
05-13-08, 03:32 AM
#17
I don't think on a purely fuel consumption basis that hybrids justify their extra expense at the moment. I can't help thinking that at the moment hybrid drivers are actually paying to be guinea pigs for this new technology.
Where the hybrid case does start to add up is when you throw in other factors - in the UK you pay annual road tax based on CO2 emissions - so you save there, and schemes like the London Congestion Charge were free for hybrid vehicles - so you saved $16 a day there. Lots of people in London chopped in their Range Rovers for Lexus RX400hs for the savings there.
Where the hybrid case does start to add up is when you throw in other factors - in the UK you pay annual road tax based on CO2 emissions - so you save there, and schemes like the London Congestion Charge were free for hybrid vehicles - so you saved $16 a day there. Lots of people in London chopped in their Range Rovers for Lexus RX400hs for the savings there.
05-13-08, 04:27 AM
#18
Lexus Test Driver
i didnt add any options. sut base on both of them and that was from toyota.com. 19000 for regular camry and 27000 for hybrid. Maybe I did something wrong, but thats what I got on there sight.
http://www.toyota.com/camry/trims-prices.html
I see what your saying about hybrid having more stuff, but the thing is I cant get it 2000 dollars cheaper than base camry. they should offer a hybrid that has nothing on it but basic power.
As for the prius. I wouldnt drive it, not my style. Im saying hybrids that I would drive. Not all people want to drive a car the size of a yugo. I like a little room to breath. Also how safe are these small cars compared to bigger cars? They may be just as safe, I dont know, but if not do we sacrifice our safety and our famillies safety for a little savings at the pump. These hybrids really arent that practical being they are really good for intown driving which means long trips your bigger car is just as good. So now you have to own a work car and a weekend car. thats insurance and service on both cars. Still a savings?
http://www.toyota.com/camry/trims-prices.html
I see what your saying about hybrid having more stuff, but the thing is I cant get it 2000 dollars cheaper than base camry. they should offer a hybrid that has nothing on it but basic power.
As for the prius. I wouldnt drive it, not my style. Im saying hybrids that I would drive. Not all people want to drive a car the size of a yugo. I like a little room to breath. Also how safe are these small cars compared to bigger cars? They may be just as safe, I dont know, but if not do we sacrifice our safety and our famillies safety for a little savings at the pump. These hybrids really arent that practical being they are really good for intown driving which means long trips your bigger car is just as good. So now you have to own a work car and a weekend car. thats insurance and service on both cars. Still a savings?
The question is whether the HYBRID is worth it.
05-13-08, 04:52 AM
#19
Pole Position
I would not own a hybrid simply because I don't believe in the technology. I fail to see the benefits (except for a big tax credit) of a hybrid. I don't think hybrid technology will play out much longer. Manufacturers know how to build economical cars without hybrid technology.
We are still playing HP wars and manufacturers need to begin a new war, a war of who can build the most powerful, fuel efficient cars.
Hybrids are green, right? Here's my thoughts.
1. Emissions technology in gasoline engines is so advanced than some of todays engines run almost 0 emissions. The air coming out the tailpipe is actually cleaner than the going in. What is the point of a hybrid with this kind of technology? I believe that in 10 years, we'll be building cars who's emissions will be so small it won't be able to be measured. (basically 0). Where will hybrids be, then?
2. Hybrid technology is more fuel efficient, right? Not according to the actual owners of hybrids. Generally speaking, hybrids could possibly get better gas mileage depending on driving habits. Many have found that hybrids don't get the fuel mileage that they were expecting. Hybrid fuel mileage is not leaps and bound better than non hybrid mileage, sometimes, worse. It is my feeling that Toyota has the capability to build a non-hybrid type Prius that is just as powerful and fuel efficient as the hybrid version.
3. We build big, powerful cars and then say "Hey, let's make a hybrid version, with even more power, but fuel mileage remains the same". What's wrong with "Hey, let's design the engine for even more fuel efficiency and lighten the car up a bit so it will get better gas mileage AND be faster than the hybrid version"? It would certainly be more cost effective. I never understood this train of thought in building hybrids. The LS460L and the Yukon come to mind.
Dollars spent on designing more powerful, yet, fuel efficient engines would pale in comparison to the dollars already spent on hybrid technology. I just feel that hybrid technology is useless, mechanically too complex, heavy, and expensive. Not what I look for in a car.
We are still playing HP wars and manufacturers need to begin a new war, a war of who can build the most powerful, fuel efficient cars.
Hybrids are green, right? Here's my thoughts.
1. Emissions technology in gasoline engines is so advanced than some of todays engines run almost 0 emissions. The air coming out the tailpipe is actually cleaner than the going in. What is the point of a hybrid with this kind of technology? I believe that in 10 years, we'll be building cars who's emissions will be so small it won't be able to be measured. (basically 0). Where will hybrids be, then?
2. Hybrid technology is more fuel efficient, right? Not according to the actual owners of hybrids. Generally speaking, hybrids could possibly get better gas mileage depending on driving habits. Many have found that hybrids don't get the fuel mileage that they were expecting. Hybrid fuel mileage is not leaps and bound better than non hybrid mileage, sometimes, worse. It is my feeling that Toyota has the capability to build a non-hybrid type Prius that is just as powerful and fuel efficient as the hybrid version.
3. We build big, powerful cars and then say "Hey, let's make a hybrid version, with even more power, but fuel mileage remains the same". What's wrong with "Hey, let's design the engine for even more fuel efficiency and lighten the car up a bit so it will get better gas mileage AND be faster than the hybrid version"? It would certainly be more cost effective. I never understood this train of thought in building hybrids. The LS460L and the Yukon come to mind.
Dollars spent on designing more powerful, yet, fuel efficient engines would pale in comparison to the dollars already spent on hybrid technology. I just feel that hybrid technology is useless, mechanically too complex, heavy, and expensive. Not what I look for in a car.
05-13-08, 07:55 AM
#21
Lexus Champion
Prius' now start at $21100...not bad....when I bought one in 2006, I also got the full tax credit of $3150 which I believe in now gone. The Prius is actually classified as a MIDSIZE car -- larger than the Lexus IS!!!!
I sold it about a year later when I found a 2000 Honda Insight with 47K miles for $8500.
I drive 55 miles RT a day and am averaging 72.1 MPG over the 17000 miles I've owned the car [I also carpool every single day with my wife].
This car more than pays for itself in the gas savings alone!!!!!!!!!
I routinely get over 700+ miles on a tank of gas (record is 970 when I topped it off 100%); I can usually squeeze in 10 gallons.
I fill it up about every 3 weeks.
Note - battery under warranty for 10 years 150000 miles
SO ARE HYBRIDS WORTH IT TO ME????? HELL YES!!!!!!
I like to screw the oil companies as much as I can.
I sold it about a year later when I found a 2000 Honda Insight with 47K miles for $8500.
I drive 55 miles RT a day and am averaging 72.1 MPG over the 17000 miles I've owned the car [I also carpool every single day with my wife].
This car more than pays for itself in the gas savings alone!!!!!!!!!
I routinely get over 700+ miles on a tank of gas (record is 970 when I topped it off 100%); I can usually squeeze in 10 gallons.
I fill it up about every 3 weeks.
Note - battery under warranty for 10 years 150000 miles
SO ARE HYBRIDS WORTH IT TO ME????? HELL YES!!!!!!
I like to screw the oil companies as much as I can.
05-13-08, 07:59 AM
#22
Lexus Fanatic
I agree. You can't simply compare MSRP. You have to get the two cars as close in options as you possibly can then compare the prices. You also can't simply compare MSRP either. Unless you are the type of person who only and always pays MSRP for their cars. You have to compare actual selling price. If similarly equipped Camry's were selling for $1000 over invoice and the average day, and the same similarly equipped Camry Hybrid's are still selling for $500 under MSRP, that is a couple thousand dollar difference in real world prices.
As the OP mentioned, it would be nice if some of these economy bread hybrids actually had fairly stripped down trims offered. Many of them, including the Prius have a lot of added on standard options that DO add cost to the vehicle. Sometimes people looking to buy a hybrid are the ones that can't afford the gas prices and thus looking for much more fuel efficient cars. They may not want or be able to afford all those standard options in the hybrid version. You probably could knock off $2-$4K off the MSRP without some of these options. This is why I sometimes say those that really need and could benefit from hybrid cars often can't afford them.
As the OP mentioned, it would be nice if some of these economy bread hybrids actually had fairly stripped down trims offered. Many of them, including the Prius have a lot of added on standard options that DO add cost to the vehicle. Sometimes people looking to buy a hybrid are the ones that can't afford the gas prices and thus looking for much more fuel efficient cars. They may not want or be able to afford all those standard options in the hybrid version. You probably could knock off $2-$4K off the MSRP without some of these options. This is why I sometimes say those that really need and could benefit from hybrid cars often can't afford them.
05-13-08, 08:11 AM
#23
Lexus Champion
I've done a cost analysis of a Prius vs a basic Corolla/Civic/Cobalt and can't make the Prius make sense anytime in the first 100k miles, and for it to make sense AFTER 100k miles you have to assume that the cost of replacement batteries will be significantly less than it is today.
05-13-08, 08:12 AM
#24
There can only be One
You don't really get better gas mileage on those trips. Generally those 100 mile a day commutes involve lots of Highway, which sort of defeats the purpose of a hybrid already. no?
I been thinking of doing the same thing as the OP, but my Matrix gets like 30+MPG already.
I don't want to make the political but with this is just may get there, but the tax credits no matter who we get as president are coming back. And THEN it may make it much more reasonable for people to get into hybrids and alternative fuel vehicles.
05-13-08, 08:18 AM
#25
Lexus Champion
Say it is though.
You don't really get better gas mileage on those trips. Generally those 100 mile a day commutes involve lots of Highway, which sort of defeats the purpose of a hybrid already. no?
I been thinking of doing the same thing as the OP, but my Matrix gets like 30+MPG already.
You don't really get better gas mileage on those trips. Generally those 100 mile a day commutes involve lots of Highway, which sort of defeats the purpose of a hybrid already. no?
I been thinking of doing the same thing as the OP, but my Matrix gets like 30+MPG already.
as far as my insight...I can achieve 70+mpg at 70mph....amazing car.
if you go to http://www.fueleconomy.gov and select 4 different cars you can customize your miles per year and city/freeway driving and compare what each car would cost you to drive per year and see the comparison for each vehicle right there.
in this example, I'd save over $850 a year by driving a Prius over the 4 Cyl Camry.
Last edited by bagwell; 05-13-08 at 09:39 AM.
05-13-08, 08:20 AM
#26
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A little analysis I did yesterday.
What it really comes down to is whether or not you need a new car and would be spending the money anyway. Personally, I am at the point where I would wait or lease a hybrid. The next generation Prius is going to make some significant fuel economy gains and reportedly retain its current price. I'd assume that the third generation hybrid synergry drive will that be applied to Toyota's other hybrids.
So back to the question is it worth it? Well, my parents have seen 31 Hwy MPG in their RX400h. Their RX300 only got them 21 Hwy MPG. Its a nice boost and they too would rather spend the money for a cleaner environment and reduce the money going into the middle east.
Corolla is rated for 27/35, Prius for 48/45. Thats a difference of 21 MPG in the city and 10 on the highway.
However, the Corolla is not in the same class as the Camry (4 cyl) so the more appropriate comparison is 21/31 vs. 48/45, a difference of 27 MPG city, 14 hwy. Obviously, the Camry is a bit faster than the Prius which I feel should be noted, though that electric motor will take you off the line.
The price difference between Camry and Prius breaks down to $2380 not including any state tax breaks. According to Toyota's hybrid savings calculator, the Camry averaging 26 MPG and the Prius averaging 46.5 MPG you would save $863.87 by driving the Prius if you drive 14k miles a year and gas was $3.69 a gallon. Thus is it would take 2.75 years to recoup the extra cost of the hybrid. Now, if gas were still $2.69 a gallon it would take 3.77 years. It's making more sense to the hybrid.
However, the Corolla is not in the same class as the Camry (4 cyl) so the more appropriate comparison is 21/31 vs. 48/45, a difference of 27 MPG city, 14 hwy. Obviously, the Camry is a bit faster than the Prius which I feel should be noted, though that electric motor will take you off the line.
The price difference between Camry and Prius breaks down to $2380 not including any state tax breaks. According to Toyota's hybrid savings calculator, the Camry averaging 26 MPG and the Prius averaging 46.5 MPG you would save $863.87 by driving the Prius if you drive 14k miles a year and gas was $3.69 a gallon. Thus is it would take 2.75 years to recoup the extra cost of the hybrid. Now, if gas were still $2.69 a gallon it would take 3.77 years. It's making more sense to the hybrid.
So back to the question is it worth it? Well, my parents have seen 31 Hwy MPG in their RX400h. Their RX300 only got them 21 Hwy MPG. Its a nice boost and they too would rather spend the money for a cleaner environment and reduce the money going into the middle east.
05-13-08, 08:21 AM
#27
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05-13-08, 08:28 AM
#28
Pole Position
Prius' now start at $21100...not bad....when I bought one in 2006, I also got the full tax credit of $3150 which I believe in now gone. The Prius is actually classified as a MIDSIZE car -- larger than the Lexus IS!!!!
I sold it about a year later when I found a 2000 Honda Insight with 47K miles for $8500.
I drive 55 miles RT a day and am averaging 72.1 MPG over the 17000 miles I've owned the car [I also carpool every single day with my wife].
This car more than pays for itself in the gas savings alone!!!!!!!!!
I routinely get over 700+ miles on a tank of gas (record is 970 when I topped it off 100%); I can usually squeeze in 10 gallons.
I fill it up about every 3 weeks.
Note - battery under warranty for 10 years 150000 miles
SO ARE HYBRIDS WORTH IT TO ME????? HELL YES!!!!!!
I like to screw the oil companies as much as I can.
I sold it about a year later when I found a 2000 Honda Insight with 47K miles for $8500.
I drive 55 miles RT a day and am averaging 72.1 MPG over the 17000 miles I've owned the car [I also carpool every single day with my wife].
This car more than pays for itself in the gas savings alone!!!!!!!!!
I routinely get over 700+ miles on a tank of gas (record is 970 when I topped it off 100%); I can usually squeeze in 10 gallons.
I fill it up about every 3 weeks.
Note - battery under warranty for 10 years 150000 miles
SO ARE HYBRIDS WORTH IT TO ME????? HELL YES!!!!!!
I like to screw the oil companies as much as I can.
05-13-08, 08:31 AM
#29
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I'm assuming that this Insight is a MT.
05-13-08, 08:32 AM
#30
There can only be One
Its okay, we'll look away while you delete or edit your post.
