View Poll Results: Should Lexus start offering 4 cylinder engines in their lineup?
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Should Lexus start offering 4 cylinders?
05-13-08, 10:36 AM
#196
Lexus Fanatic
That is the thing though, you don't have to keep revving the engine high to get it to move. The C230 Kompressor even if underpowered for my taste did the job just fine. In fact, my friend actually like that car more than his V6 Mercedes when he used to get them as a loaner. Not all luxury car buyers want 80/90s Cadillac isolated boats. That is why the Luxury Sports Sedan segment came about. Many of them do want a more sporty luxury car.
I think we are talking about two different luxury car buyers here. The ones you are talking about like to drive the Lexus LS460 and have the car park itself. Nothing wrong with that. The ones I'm talking about prefer the M and AMG luxury cars. Okay, I do realize that those are V8s and huge torque and HP, but what I'm saying is there are a lot of luxury car buyers that want sports and performance in their cars. I personally would choose the 8K RPM engine option over the lower revving V8 option of both of them had comparable performance because I'm a luxury car buyer that wants sports and performance. Most of my friend's choose to the GS400/430 over the LS at the time, then spent a ton of money modifying it and making it more sporty with larger exhausts, intakes, bigger rims. We are all luxury car buyers and not necessarily our fathers luxury car buyer.
Like I said before. For me, the true definition of a luxury car is giving the buyer what he wants. Not what the manufacturer says you should have.
I think we are talking about two different luxury car buyers here. The ones you are talking about like to drive the Lexus LS460 and have the car park itself. Nothing wrong with that. The ones I'm talking about prefer the M and AMG luxury cars. Okay, I do realize that those are V8s and huge torque and HP, but what I'm saying is there are a lot of luxury car buyers that want sports and performance in their cars. I personally would choose the 8K RPM engine option over the lower revving V8 option of both of them had comparable performance because I'm a luxury car buyer that wants sports and performance. Most of my friend's choose to the GS400/430 over the LS at the time, then spent a ton of money modifying it and making it more sporty with larger exhausts, intakes, bigger rims. We are all luxury car buyers and not necessarily our fathers luxury car buyer.
Like I said before. For me, the true definition of a luxury car is giving the buyer what he wants. Not what the manufacturer says you should have.
05-13-08, 10:37 AM
#197
Thats funny. My dad's past 3 cars have been Aurora with Northsrtar V8, A6 2.7L T and now the 330xi. He has had a decent amount of power under his feet for awhile. Im on my second Legacy and he said to me a year ago, "Ben, this one is a V6 right?"
I said, "wrong on both accounts. Its a 4 and a flat one."
I guess the key here is that a car can only have 4 cylinders (though mine is a big 4 cylinder) and still accelerate sprightly. I attribute that to my Legacy's3050 lb. curb weight. Something I feel that Lexus should be striving toward with the IS or BMW with the 1 and 3 series and especially the extremely chubby CTS, though I realize its a bit bigger. Maybe not 3000 lbs, but these luxury compact cars are too heavy and then you have to have the 6 cylinder engine to get moving.
I said, "wrong on both accounts. Its a 4 and a flat one."
I guess the key here is that a car can only have 4 cylinders (though mine is a big 4 cylinder) and still accelerate sprightly. I attribute that to my Legacy's3050 lb. curb weight. Something I feel that Lexus should be striving toward with the IS or BMW with the 1 and 3 series and especially the extremely chubby CTS, though I realize its a bit bigger. Maybe not 3000 lbs, but these luxury compact cars are too heavy and then you have to have the 6 cylinder engine to get moving.
A few pages back I said I'd love to see those types of engines in the IS class. That said, the Turbo I4 moves the near 4000 lbs RDX just fine. A friend of mine Colin Sato who is a very good autocross driver and racer is also a salesman for Acura. He was able to take the RDX out on a track at the Acura events. He had good things to say about its power delivery and he is an SCCA racer that won his class a number of times.
05-13-08, 10:38 AM
#198
Lexus Champion
if lexus puts a 4 cyl in the IS, I guess you could remove the IS200 badge and stick on 'IS250' or 'IS350' if you're worried about being seen in a 4 cyl luxury car 
05-13-08, 10:48 AM
#199
If the car is well isolated enough, then the driver most likely wont hear the noise as much. My Acura legend's V6 is dead quiet when it comes to engine noise compared to my GS400. But as far as isolation goes, the GS beats my Legend, therefore I don't really hear it as much while I'm driving. I've driven my friend's Honda Accord coupe 4cyl and the engine is smooth and quiet. It's noisier when you get near redline, but it wouldn't matter too much because you're not going to race your luxury car.
05-13-08, 10:55 AM
#200
For those who are complaining about having to rev the crap out of the engine to make power, here is a dyno of an 09 TSX 6spd with 122 miles on the engine. The torque curve is damn flat if you ask me.
Older Hondas are known to lack low end torque. These K-series are NOT the same when it comes to making power. Realize that you can shift the powerband. You just happen to compromise other things, but that's the nature of ANY engine design. You cannot have it all. This is a different era of engine technology.
Older Hondas are known to lack low end torque. These K-series are NOT the same when it comes to making power. Realize that you can shift the powerband. You just happen to compromise other things, but that's the nature of ANY engine design. You cannot have it all. This is a different era of engine technology.
05-13-08, 11:05 AM
#201
For those who are complaining about having to rev the crap out of the engine to make power, here is a dyno of an 09 TSX 6spd with 122 miles on the engine. The torque curve is damn flat if you ask me.
Older Hondas are known to lack low end torque. These K-series are NOT the same when it comes to making power. Realize that you can shift the powerband. You just happen to compromise other things, but that's the nature of ANY engine design. You cannot have it all. This is a different era of engine technology.
Older Hondas are known to lack low end torque. These K-series are NOT the same when it comes to making power. Realize that you can shift the powerband. You just happen to compromise other things, but that's the nature of ANY engine design. You cannot have it all. This is a different era of engine technology.
I have always been a fan of using a smaller higher strung engine. For me, it is easy to make power in a V8. I find joy in smaller engines making tons of power and having over all performance equal to or nearly the same as larger engines. But, that is just me. I love the higher screeching sound of an F1 engine reving at 18K RPM vs the load rubble of a NASCAR V8. But remember, I'm the guy hanging around friends that put loader exhausts systems on their Lexus cars
We are a different luxury car buyer indeed.
05-13-08, 11:19 AM
#202
Lexus Champion
I have always been a fan of using a smaller higher strung engine. For me, it is easy to make power in a V8. I find joy in smaller engines making tons of power and having over all performance equal to or nearly the same as larger engines. I love the higher screeching sound of an F1 engine reving at 18K RPM vs the load rubble of a NASCAR V8
05-13-08, 11:33 AM
#203
Absolutely. Love the S2000, NSX, M3 and the like. I choose the NSX over the S2000 though for various reasons. Another reason why I personally have never owned an S2000 even if I'm a huge fan is because I'm NOT a convertible guy. I'm a hard top coupe guy. I realize you can buy the hard top for the S2000, but its just not the same.
05-13-08, 11:46 AM
#204
Lexus Champion
Absolutely. Love the S2000, NSX, M3 and the like. I choose the NSX over the S2000 though for various reasons. Another reason why I personally have never owned an S2000 even if I'm a huge fan is because I'm NOT a convertible guy. I'm a hard top coupe guy. I realize you can buy the hard top for the S2000, but its just not the same.
humm, I may check out a used NSX.
05-13-08, 03:36 PM
#205
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I don't like all the V-teching of the S2000. Give me some actual torque. Please.
05-13-08, 04:48 PM
#206
Have you driven one? On paper it is low on torque, but that is the very last thing you even think about or realize when you're rowing through the gears. When you're just tooting around town it drives just fine as well. The lack of torque that people complain about is really not an issue when you have a manual transmission. Part of the reason perhaps that I never noticed a problem is because I'm usually in the right gear for what I want to do. In an automatic I can see a problem as the automatic tranny searches for the right gear or even stays in the wrong gear too long.
05-14-08, 08:10 AM
#207
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As for buying luxury, you cannot bunch Lexus with Infinit/Acura. They are on the lower rung and have not proven then can compete in the upper luxury arena. Lexus has and has proven this for sometime. If you look at many MSRPs, the Lexus is as much if not more than the German. This is especially true with Lexus vs Audi pricing. Audi is actually the lower priced of the 4 brands (BMW/Benz/Lexus/Audi).
Infiniti is more focused as they're market themselves as BMW competitors but if we're honest they've not focused much on expanding in the luxury market. The M35/M45 is probably the closest rival to the BMW 5 series (and now Jaguar XF) in terms of driving dynamics but its comfort ratings are poor. It does come with many toys though.
Diesels have improved in refinement and environmentally friendliness and moreover performance. Diesels are PERFECTLY suited for our American-style driving and roads, more so than gasoline engines.
My father has always had diesel cars in the past, but this was because he was a Mercedes customer. We had an early '80s 300SD Turbodiesel and an '83 or '84 300D. Our last Mercedes was an late 1990s E290 Turbodiesel estate which was stolen.
You can read any CAR/EVO/Top Gear, when they test diesels, they are the brands entry level cars or lowest rung of that range. Like a 520d for example.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't call a BMW 520d an "entry level" car. I work in Europe and I meet a number of wealthy people / clients who drive BMW 520d's or a Mercedes S class with a V6 diesel. These are people who can easily afford an M5 or an S65 AMG, yet they seem to purchase cars with a "What do I need?" type of mentality. The very thing that is lacking in our American automotive culture where we're told that big is better but never why. See what I am saying?
Just because BMW offers a 520i or 520d doesn't make this car or the people who buy them "posers". These are sensible choices for some people who want the car but don't need the power. I actually wish Lexus would do the same because someone who wants an efficient GS has to go for the V6 or V6-hybrid, neither of which are that efficient as a theoretical "GS200". And as this thread shows, people are not ready yet to think further beyond the "4-cylinders in luxury cars suck" attitude.
05-14-08, 08:15 AM
#208
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You need a diesel 4-cylinder then, but they're usually turbocharged. At any rate I don't see why you need such a powerful engine when 70-80% of the time, I suspect you're stuck in traffic burning precious dinosaur and plant remains or are limited by speed limits. 
4-cylinders of that caliber already exist. You should try the current Mercedes C180 Kompressor motor. It feels and sounds like a V6 engine. I was able to testdrive it and I had to pop the hood to convince myself that this wasn't a 6-cylinder. The new Audi 4-cylinders are reportedly very smooth. Honda? Their 4-cylinders just got even better.
4-cylinders of that caliber already exist. You should try the current Mercedes C180 Kompressor motor. It feels and sounds like a V6 engine. I was able to testdrive it and I had to pop the hood to convince myself that this wasn't a 6-cylinder. The new Audi 4-cylinders are reportedly very smooth. Honda? Their 4-cylinders just got even better.
05-14-08, 08:23 AM
#209
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The last two pages were interesting. The thing is, 4 cylinder cars from the German manufacturers are offered for several reasons. Aside from the lower price point, there's also fuel efficiency and as well some countries TAX by the engine displacement so for some, it's more economical to go for the lower model.
However, here in North America, people equate size and power with luxury it seems. Also, like someone pointed out, we must have all the latest doodads. The problem with that is that it adds weight and putting a 4 cylinder in the vehicle won't help because it'll probably get similar mileage than a small displacement V6 just because it has to work harder to move the weight.
Case in point. The 268hp Camry V6. Apparently you need to get to the supermarket with car that does 0-60 in 7.6 secs. People claim my 10.5 sec Prius is slow (don't the 4 cylinder Camry/Corolla do 10 secs?).
Or what about the 4 cylinder TSX. That does 0-60 in about 8 secs IIRC. Not bad for a 4 cylinder car considering two generations ago, the Camry V6 clocked 8ish secs to 60. Also a 525i got almost similar mileage to a 530i because of the strain on the lower output 3.0 litre on the 525i.
However, here in North America, people equate size and power with luxury it seems. Also, like someone pointed out, we must have all the latest doodads. The problem with that is that it adds weight and putting a 4 cylinder in the vehicle won't help because it'll probably get similar mileage than a small displacement V6 just because it has to work harder to move the weight.
Case in point. The 268hp Camry V6. Apparently you need to get to the supermarket with car that does 0-60 in 7.6 secs. People claim my 10.5 sec Prius is slow (don't the 4 cylinder Camry/Corolla do 10 secs?).
Or what about the 4 cylinder TSX. That does 0-60 in about 8 secs IIRC. Not bad for a 4 cylinder car considering two generations ago, the Camry V6 clocked 8ish secs to 60. Also a 525i got almost similar mileage to a 530i because of the strain on the lower output 3.0 litre on the 525i.
A 4-cylinder engine in the IS, 3er and C class niche is completely doable and acceptable. There won't be any fuel economy penalties with these engines under the hoods of several cars here. Hence I wish Lexus would make an IS200 and a proper diesel IS with a newly designed engine and not a Toyota Avensis diesel engine.
Starting with the GS, E class and 5er segment, a 4-cylinder might not be as well suited, especially a gasoline 4-cylinder motor. I am basing this on the comments of a colleague at work who had a Mercedes E200 Kompressor but now drives an E220 CDI. According to him the fuel economy difference between the two is mind boggling.
05-14-08, 08:24 AM
#210
Just because BMW offers a 520i or 520d doesn't make this car or the people who buy them "posers". These are sensible choices for some people who want the car but don't need the power. I actually wish Lexus would do the same because someone who wants an efficient GS has to go for the V6 or V6-hybrid, neither of which are that efficient as a theoretical "GS200". And as this thread shows, people are not ready yet to think further beyond the "4-cylinders in luxury cars suck" attitude.
As far as a four cylinder GS... It could potentially be less fuel efficient than V6 GS, especially on a highway. A four cylinder has to work hard to accelerate such big and heavy vehicle. For instance, my v8 GS has pathetic fuel economy in the city, ranging from 12-14mpg. However on the highway it is comparable to my old Honda Civic, returning 25-28mpg. And I'm not talking about EPA ratings, I'm talking about real world numbers.