Och

iTrader: (3)

Not quite. People buy cheaper cars because thats all they can afford. If I could afford it, I would be driving LS600h.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Depends, it would have to meet certain conditions.

1) Be NA powered. I hate turbo whine, and I couldn't deal with it on daily basis.
2) It would have to have the same flat torque curve of my V8.
3) It would have to be as smooth as my V8.

So lets say, in 20 years time there's going to be a 4 cylinder engine, with reasonable displacement, NA powered, producing over 300lb/tq with a flat torque curve, idles so smoothly that it can hardly be heard or felt, and delivers 40mpg. And even then it would be a touch decision, because V8's of that generation should become twice as good.

Threxx

That's not true at all.

My dad could write a check right now for a few Enzo Ferraris and still afford to retire comfortably. But he's not. Why? Several reasons.

-He sees it as wasteful - he has grown up learning to be financially responsible and has developed instincts to not throw money away on heavily depreciating assets.

-He doesn't like the image that high end cars give. He's not a materialistic person and he doesn't want to be seen as one.

-He's not that much of a car person anyway - he'd enjoy taking a Vette around the block for a spin but wouldn't really be that excited to own one. He actually drives a 2002 F150 absolute base model truck... 5-speed manual, vinyl bench seats, etc... very practical purchase, and he likes it.

The two owners of my company bring in multiple millions per year in income a piece and yet one drives a 50k dollar GMC Yukon Denali that he trades in for a new one every 3 years, and the other drives an Infiniti M35... before that an Acura RL (old body style).

I ask why and they say they prefer to spend their money on property, investments, seeing the world, and also they have to maintain an image for their customers... if they pull up in a 200k dollar car, their customers automatically believe they're being ripped off, when they're not.

Nextourer

The last two pages were interesting. The thing is, 4 cylinder cars from the German manufacturers are offered for several reasons. Aside from the lower price point, there's also fuel efficiency and as well some countries TAX by the engine displacement so for some, it's more economical to go for the lower model.

However, here in North America, people equate size and power with luxury it seems. Also, like someone pointed out, we must have all the latest doodads. The problem with that is that it adds weight and putting a 4 cylinder in the vehicle won't help because it'll probably get similar mileage than a small displacement V6 just because it has to work harder to move the weight.

Case in point. The 268hp Camry V6. Apparently you need to get to the supermarket with car that does 0-60 in 7.6 secs. People claim my 10.5 sec Prius is slow (don't the 4 cylinder Camry/Corolla do 10 secs?).

Or what about the 4 cylinder TSX. That does 0-60 in about 8 secs IIRC. Not bad for a 4 cylinder car considering two generations ago, the Camry V6 clocked 8ish secs to 60. Also a 525i got almost similar mileage to a 530i because of the strain on the lower output 3.0 litre on the 525i.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

NA 4 cylinders don't have to be slow. S2000 0-60 in low 6 seconds. Civic Si 0-60 in low 7 second or even under 7 seconds. Ingetra Type-R 0-60 in under 7 seconds. All 4 cylinder NA engines that people claim are torqueless but when driven around town normally get the job done just fine, and when you want it to screams and turns into an animal.

Now, add a turbo or electric hybrid motors to that 4 cylinder motor and problem solved. That 4 cylinder motor now could have more HP and torque than most V6 engines. And if one is still stuck in Image the hybrid version should help the so called Luxury Image right?

Personally, my engine of choice is normally a V6. I have owned 2 V8 cars in the SC400 and LS400 and I liked them, but I prefer the higher revving engines found in most V6 and I4s. I personally don't like spending my rev time under 2K RPM. That is boring for me. I like to rev my cars to redline every now and then and I had a car that revved to 8K RPM and it was a blast every single day to drive. That car only produced 224 ft lbs of torque under the old SAE specs which is low for most people, but I could out accelerate and had a higher top speed than most cars anyway. I felt no lack of torque driving around town. Anything near the 250 HP and 250 ft lbs of torque is more than adequate.

ISF_GG

iTrader: (2)

For the immediate future Lexus can stay with 6 and 8 cylinder engines. As the price of gas passes the $8, $10, and $12 per gallon threshold, all car makers will be forced to use smaller more fuel efficient engines. Although current technology does allow for cylinder deactivation at partial throttle on many cars now, that might allow for the continued use of larger engines into the future. Let's face it, if and when gas prices get high enough, we will all be looking for fuel frugal cars to buy. And car manufacturers will strive to meet that demand, or they will be out of business. Just my 0.02

LexFather

Look at those cars listed, they are not luxury cars, but the sportiest versions of that particular model/brand. You have to rev the cars to 6k to get them going. Fun for a sporty car but it is annoying for anything luxury.

The debate is not that 4-cylinders are bad, we know there are some great 4s out there. The debate is would you put one of those 4 cylinders in a luxury car? Nope.

Also those 4-cylinders don't even get great gas mileage, b/c they are high-strung, which means more revving which means eating gas.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

I was never one of those arguing for fuel economy anyway. So for me, it doesn't really matter if the 4 cylinder engine gets more, same, or less fuel economy than your typical luxury V6. I'm saying given the right 4 cylinder engine is can and will work mechanically in a luxury car (Image argument aside) and in fact I personally consider some 4 cylinder engines more upscale, complex, and refined than many V6/V8 engines. If it works, it works, and 4 cylinder engines can work in luxury because quite frankly, if most luxury car buyers was in a turbocharged 4 cylinder equipped luxury car making 300 hp and 280 ft lbs of torque, or in the optional V6 making 300 hp and 300 ft lbs of torque 99% of them wont know what engine is under the hood. Perhaps many of them might **** and moan once they open the hood and see a 4 banger in there, but up until that point they wouldn't know the difference.

But, I'm a different type of guy. I love high strung engines like the V6 NSX motor, the I6 E46 M4 motor, the new 335i engine. Those are the type of engines I'd love to have in any car I own whether it be a sports car or luxury car. Engines and cars are mechanical. They are meant to be revved up. Perhaps pure bread luxury buyers for those wanting to drive in church like quiet environments should buy electric vehicles rather than an ICE that is really a controlled explosion. Rather then spending all that time and money trying to make an explosion quiet, maybe they should look to other propulsion technology.

I know you agree on this one. Luxury is all about choices. The choice to have all the options you want, or the choice to NOT have any of the options. That IMHO is the true definition of a luxury car. Giving the buyer what he wants. Not what everyone else says he wants.

IS350jet

I have to respectfully disagree. These two scenarios are worlds apart. Although HP and torque are similar, both of these engines act like much different animals and almost anybody could tell them apart instantly.

XeroK00L

Yup...exactly why the RS200 was never badged a Lexus only the AS200 and AS300, even though the RS200 is just as fast as the AS300! The 3S-GE is simply too noisy and high-strung for a luxury-branded car.

SLegacy99

= Awesome

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

Take my mom, bother, sister, wife. I don't tell them a car is RWD, a V6, or I6, or I4, they don't know the difference. All they know is if the car feels slow or fast. It is possible that driving them back to back they may be able to tell the difference, but most of the people I know can't tell the difference between a C230 Kompressor and a C240 wile driving them around.

Take the 335i compared to the IS350 engine. If you told the average person that knew nothing about these cars to guess what type of engine each had after a test drive I would bet the majority of them wouldn't be able to give you the right answer. Perhaps they may all just say V6 or V8 due to the power, but even most BMW drivers don't know the difference between a V6 and an I6. Most of them don't even open the hood. They just take the car to the dealership for service.

I can do the test for you if you want. I can go ask some of our reporters that lease cars to give me the mechanical specs of their cars and I bet they couldn't do it.

XeroK00L

But even a regular person can tell a noisy engine from a quiet one. If you constantly have to rev an engine to get the car up to speed, it won't feel and sound like a "luxury" car. My RS200 vs. AS300 comparison above is a good example.

CK6Speed

iTrader: (1)

That is the thing though, you don't have to keep revving the engine high to get it to move. The C230 Kompressor even if underpowered for my taste did the job just fine. In fact, my friend actually like that car more than his V6 Mercedes when he used to get them as a loaner. Not all luxury car buyers want 80/90s Cadillac isolated boats. That is why the Luxury Sports Sedan segment came about. Many of them do want a more sporty luxury car.

I think we are talking about two different luxury car buyers here. The ones you are talking about like to drive the Lexus LS460 and have the car park itself. Nothing wrong with that. The ones I'm talking about prefer the M and AMG luxury cars. Okay, I do realize that those are V8s and huge torque and HP, but what I'm saying is there are a lot of luxury car buyers that want sports and performance in their cars. I personally would choose the 8K RPM engine option over the lower revving V8 option of both of them had comparable performance because I'm a luxury car buyer that wants sports and performance. Most of my friend's choose to the GS400/430 over the LS at the time, then spent a ton of money modifying it and making it more sporty with larger exhausts, intakes, bigger rims. We are all luxury car buyers and not necessarily our fathers luxury car buyer.

Like I said before. For me, the true definition of a luxury car is giving the buyer what he wants. Not what the manufacturer says you should have.

SLegacy99

Thats funny. My dad's past 3 cars have been Aurora with Northsrtar V8, A6 2.7L T and now the 330xi. He has had a decent amount of power under his feet for awhile. Im on my second Legacy and he said to me a year ago, "Ben, this one is a V6 right?"
I said, "wrong on both accounts. Its a 4 and a flat one."

I guess the key here is that a car can only have 4 cylinders (though mine is a big 4 cylinder) and still accelerate sprightly. I attribute that to my Legacy's3050 lb. curb weight. Something I feel that Lexus should be striving toward with the IS or BMW with the 1 and 3 series and especially the extremely chubby CTS, though I realize its a bit bigger. Maybe not 3000 lbs, but these luxury compact cars are too heavy and then you have to have the 6 cylinder engine to get moving.