zazag

http://www.forbes.com/business/2007/...110luxury.html



This statement is stemmed from the fact that Infiniti build vehicles that closely match their BMW counterparts in sportiness while costing significantly less, a claim Lexus will be hard pressed to make.

spwolf

sounds good... BMW quit trying to outdo Lexus and is happy with 2nd place?

JZA80MHU38

When does BMW have to outdo Lexus at all? They are targeting different consumers. BMW is about balance performance without sacrificing ride quality and utility. Class to class, which Lexus model can run better than BMW's?

mmarshall

Welcome, zazag, to CL.......and to CAR CHAT. I see this is your first post.
Hopefully it won't be your last. We're not like many other auto forums. We talk vehicles, old and new, here, 24 hours a day, around the clock.


Sportiness or not, Lexus handily outsells both BMW and Infiniti in the American market for a reason. Not everyone ( in fact the majority of car buyers ) are not necessarily looking for a car to carve up the twisties with. And the Lexus IS series ( I had an IS300 myself for 5 years) compares favorably with the 3-series in a number of ways, short of actual steering and chassis dynamics, where BMW is the undisputed king.

JZA80MHU38

If you don't count the truck (RX, GX, LX and X3, X5), BMW actually outsold Lexus in 2006 on "car" sales.

TwiBlueG35

The ultimate goal of doing business is selling more products and/or making more profits. You lose if you can not outsell your competitons or make more money than they do, as simple as that. There is no excuses. Yeah BMW makes better performed vehicles than Lexus, everyone knows that, but how many of those everyone cares about that? Do BMW make more comfortable vehicles than Lexus? Do they make more reliable vehicles than Lexus? BMW is so proud of selling thirty times more vehicles than Lexus in European soil, but BMW is a European company. Does BMW sell more BMW than Toyota does in Japan? If so, now they should be very proud. But neither BMW nor Lexus are American company, and yet Lexus repeatedly defeat BMW in sales number.

JZA80MHU38

Wow, so insightful.

I don't recall BMW losing any money at all. They may actually have better profit margin than Toyota. BMW has a better % increase in sales last year than Lexus. Hell, Porsche has the best profit margin per car sold. Can you say they "lose" to Lexus?

Ice350

iTrader: (1)

You guys are getting off topic somewhat. The thread title is about BMW being more worried about Infiniti than Lexus. They know Lexus is luxury sales king. BMW wants to be king of the "drivers car". I agree with this assessment. Owning both brands I can tell you the Infiniti's are way more fun to drive. This is subjective though. Some people define fun differently. Fun to some people mught be cruizing along in their luxo barge. If you like tight steering, stable turns, super responsive handling...that's not Lexus territory. That's where BMW resides and where Infiniti has arrived. All Lexus models, including the IS are luxury cars first before trying to be something else. BMW and Infiniti are drivers' cars first and have luxury.

DrUnBiased

Who is in second place here? Last I checked, BMW was the number one (#1) selling luxury car manufacturer in the world. I've done the math before in another thread.... Even if you take away 1-series, 3-series and Mini sales away from BMW, they still outsell Lexus worldwide.

World>U.S.

MSMLexIS

I think Lexus would be a bigger threat not only is Toyota wealthier than nissan, Lexus is still a better value than BMW and they have more prestige than Infiniti which is a big selling point for BMW prestige also Lexus can develop excellent performance cars and of course theres the luxury aspect of Lexus. Plus Lexus is a competitor to BMW outside of the US where there is no Infiniti.

mmarshall

Yes.....but counting the SUV's you mention, that just reaffirms what I said in my last most.....that buyers of Lexus products, in general, are not as concerned with sportiness as those of BMW products, even the X3 and X5.
And......you also have to consider the fact that BMW and Porsche would probably not be marketing SUV's at all if it were not for the public's insatible desire for them.

mmarshall

Well, that is not surprising when you consider that BMW has been in buisness since the early 20th century and Lexus was not intoduced until 1990...in the United States. Lexus is now just getting started in Japan itself and some other countries. Considering that Lexus has been in buisness only 16-17 years to BMW's 70 or 80, its growth has been remarkable. And you would EXPECT Lexus to outsell BMW here......this is the country the Lexus nameplate was first introduced in. And, yes, BMW does outsell Lexus in Germany ( what would you expect? ) because, even with their lousy electronics, unreliability, and the complexities of I-Drive, BMW's are well-suited to German driving conditions and appeal to those who love a pure driving feel..

ivanpetrov

1 series: luxury?

outside america, i would not consider bmw a strictly luxury brand.

mmarshall

Even in the U.S., having the Mini Cooper also detracts from BMW's "luxury" image somewhat.

LexFather

Worldwide sales BMW/Audi/Benz all fight for first place. They all sell over 1 mill units a year.
However as someone stated, it is kind of skewed as they sell tons of NON luxury cars.
A class
B class
1 series
A2
A3
etc
While Lexus does not offer but one I-4 (a diesel) and simply has TOYOTA to attack the downmarket.
Lexus is 4th in global sales with near 1/2 a million. Caddy is 5th and everyone else is not even close.

Kudos to Infiniti for even being mentioned by BMW but I think this guy has the same arrogance as BMW did in 1989 when they literally laughed at Lexus.
Lexus can be sporty, they still are just world re-known and overshadowed for quality and luxury. With the new IS-F and LF-A, Lexus aims to change that perception.